The Politics Thread 2019

[Highgate]

36 minutes ago, Igorlegend11 said:

I get the point. And I can't see Ireland being happy at migrants meandering through. And I am certain the Northern Irish don't want migrants meandering around their country.

It's a similar issue to the French initially saying they would withdraw border controls around Calais.   They won't. Because if they do we will re introduce the French to international law and borders.  And advise them to better educate their new found EU  citizens they are safely keeping and feeding.

But non if the above us sufficient to stop the UK returning to a democratic state, able to trade with whom we wish in the world. 

More sovereign maybe, not sure about democratic, that remains to be seen.  Getting rid of the FPTP system for elections would be a good start. 

The UK is entitled to go it's own way if it wishes, obviously.  However given the nature of the global economy and environment I think the notion of a free, independent nation state is becoming more and more anachronistic with each passing year. 

[Van der MoodHoover]

48 minutes ago, Igorlegend11 said:

That's where we disagree. The EU federal project will suffer far more than the UK. That's why they offered an extension hoping we would cave in and accept a bad deal.

We haven't caved in. The objective and hope of all UK citizens should be that a deal satisfactory to the UK is struck.  Yet so many MP's and parties have tried to overturn brexit instead of being on the side of the UK government and if so then such a lousy deal would not have been entertained by the then UK PM. She tried to deliver the democratic wish of the UK people and bowed way to much to the EU.

The notion the EU hold all the cards is a fallacy. They lose 39billion pounds if there is no transition. We never ever agreed to pay that money. Only the EU could waste a year talking about money that was only ever payable if the subsequent rest of discussions lead to a deal.  

They end up with an open border in Ireland. Destroying their federal club. Irish citizens will be able to drive into the UK and buy non EU goods.   That's something the EU have to accept.

They were so well prepared for a hard brexit so much so they let us stay in! 

The EU now know we will leave by a hard brexit.  They have a choice 

AND as the major remaining EU power Germany will in fact step in where the federal system of commissionaires  has failed and Germany will insist the UK concessions are made.  Because they have an awful lot to lose. 

 

I don't know what to say to all of this other than I think you're living in some parallel universe.

Personally I believe none of your statements are factually correct and your assumptions about the future completely wide of the mark. 

[McRainy]

28 minutes ago, Highgate said:

I think the notion of a free, independent nation state is becoming more and more anachronistic with each passing year. 

Freedom is certainly becoming passé, I'll agree with you there. 

[Igorlegend11]

24 minutes ago, HantsRam said:

I don't know what to say to all of this other than I think you're living in some parallel universe.

Personally I believe none of your statements are factually correct and your assumptions about the future completely wide of the mark. 

To assist you realise their is a whole lot of truths a lot of remainers can't handle I shall point you towards the below extracts.

Indisputable fact1 :

They were so well prepared for a hard brexit so much so they let us stay in!

Indisputable fact2 :

The EU now know we will leave by a hard brexit. ( Admitedly not all the UK public know, or rather refuse to accept this ) They have a choice 

Indisputable fact3 :

Only the EU could waste a year talking about money that was only ever payable if the subsequent rest of discussions lead to a deal. 

And where the UK public don't engage or think who's side they are on does mean as per your response I am sadly wrong on the following statement I made.

The objective and hope of all UK citizens should be that a deal satisfactory to the UK is struck.

 

That I am wrong is a massive driving factor in my desire to exit the EU.  UK public started to think of the EU first. To think as being a European as opposed to a UK resident. 

Whilst I can't prove to you Germany will stop a hard brexit so as to avoid its own economic hardship, I am staggered if the UK public is not aware of the true driver of the EU federal state.

[Van der MoodHoover]

10 minutes ago, Igorlegend11 said:

To assist you realise their is a whole lot of truths a lot of remainers can't handle I shall point you towards the below extracts.

Indisputable fact1 :

They were so well prepared for a hard brexit so much so they let us stay in!

Indisputable fact2 :

The EU now know we will leave by a hard brexit. ( Admitedly not all the UK public know, or rather refuse to accept this ) They have a choice 

Indisputable fact3 :

Only the EU could waste a year talking about money that was only ever payable if the subsequent rest of discussions lead to a deal. 

And where the UK public don't engage or think who's side they are on does mean as per your response I am sadly wrong on the following statement I made.

The objective and hope of all UK citizens should be that a deal satisfactory to the UK is struck.

 

That I am wrong is a massive driving factor in my desire to exit the EU.  UK public started to think of the EU first. To think as being a European as opposed to a UK resident. 

Whilst I can't prove to you Germany will stop a hard brexit so as to avoid its own economic hardship, I am staggered if the UK public is not aware of the true driver of the EU federal state.

Oh do keep going with the "indisputable facts". They are an absolute triumph of revisionism and some weird form of denial about how the Brexit process has unfolded to date.

Which bit of "the UK government signed the withdrawal agreement " has passed you by? That's the UK government as voted for by the UK public in our representative democratic system. As in the UK taking back control. Are you seriously trying to suggest that said government (as representative of the majority of UK voters) was bullied into something they didn't want by the nasty Europeans?

[Highgate]

26 minutes ago, Igorlegend11 said:

That I am wrong is a massive driving factor in my desire to exit the EU.  UK public started to think of the EU first. To think as being a European as opposed to a UK resident. 

Whilst I can't prove to you Germany will stop a hard brexit so as to avoid its own economic hardship, I am staggered if the UK public is not aware of the true driver of the EU federal state.

Think of what it will mean for the future of the EU if a state can leave the Union and subsequently prosper economically? If the UK does just as well or better outside the EU as within, then what is the motivation for other states to remain in the EU? 

The EU is prepared to take an economic hit if it thinks it will help preserve the Union in the long-term.  Don't doubt that for a moment. 

That's not the EU being vindictive towards the UK, it's just self-preservation and common sense.

[McRainy]

45 minutes ago, Highgate said:

Think of what it will mean for the future of the EU if a state can leave the Union and subsequently prosper economically? If the UK does just as well or better outside the EU as within, then what is the motivation for other states to remain in the EU? 

The EU is prepared to take an economic hit if it thinks it will help preserve the Union in the long-term.  Don't doubt that for a moment. 

That's not the EU being vindictive towards the UK, it's just self-preservation and common sense.

That's funny, I thought it was all supposed to be peace and light, not a grab for centralised power at all costs. 

[GboroRam]

Don't drive the car into the ditch! 

Why not? We're running out of fuel anyway. Not driving into the ditch will do nothing about our fuel problem. 

[Igorlegend11]

1 hour ago, Highgate said:

Think of what it will mean for the future of the EU if a state can leave the Union and subsequently prosper economically? If the UK does just as well or better outside the EU as within, then what is the motivation for other states to remain in the EU? 

The EU is prepared to take an economic hit if it thinks it will help preserve the Union in the long-term.  Don't doubt that for a moment. 

That's not the EU being vindictive towards the UK, it's just self-preservation and common sense.

Very good honest points you make.   I am well aware of them.    None of those are reasons to remain and be held back.

It's pretty obvious without the UK contributions and trade that the EU will struggle.  And that's their choice 

To have let the EU dictate the order of negotiations was crazy. It was wasted time agreeing a settlement.  It will take them years in courts to get anywhere near 39bn from the UK.  Even then.....they are likely to be net with a response of  "and......".   A ramshackle EU army will struggle to get out of base never mind do anything.

Meanwhile, our Navy will police our seas IF the EU decide it must be a hard brexit.

EU not suffering is not true.

You are right the EU may think they have to suffer to keep the other members in check.  Hardly a basis for a trusting future relationship. But thats their concern not the UK's 

[Igorlegend11]

1 hour ago, HantsRam said:

Oh do keep going with the "indisputable facts". They are an absolute triumph of revisionism and some weird form of denial about how the Brexit process has unfolded to date.

Which bit of "the UK government signed the withdrawal agreement " has passed you by? That's the UK government as voted for by the UK public in our representative democratic system. As in the UK taking back control. Are you seriously trying to suggest that said government (as representative of the majority of UK voters) was bullied into something they didn't want by the nasty Europeans?

It was always known the deal need to be approved by Parliament. Even the EU knew the deal needed parliamentary approval.   As requested by remainers through the courts.  

For nasty Europeans, I suggest you read Highgates honest defence of the EU position ?

[Igorlegend11]

42 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Don't drive the car into the ditch! 

Why not? We're running out of fuel anyway. Not driving into the ditch will do nothing about our fuel problem. 

Fantastic detailed informative piece of information that can be applied to anything you don't like. Bravo

[Highgate]

1 hour ago, McRainy said:

That's funny, I thought it was all supposed to be peace and light, not a grab for centralised power at all costs. 

No wonder you are somewhat disillusioned with the whole 'European Project' then.  ? 

[McRamFan]

Who are the two biggest economies in the world?

How many States or provinces do they have?

Where does the EU, as a trade block, rank against them?

Before anyone Jack's off about capitalism destroying the world, humanity does have the capability to get its head out of its arse when needed.

Irish border, easy give NI back to Eire, just like the rest of the countries that have become independent, but happy to remain in the commonwealth.

 

[GboroRam]

1 hour ago, Igorlegend11 said:

Fantastic detailed informative piece of information that can be applied to anything you don't like. Bravo

Laughable. If it's a bad decision it makes no sense to continue. I know that you are so committed to the Brexit mantra it's inconceivable it won't be a glorious success, but we started this process with a plan that just said brexit, and nobody had a vision for anything after. Some people believed it meant less foreign people, some thought it meant more money for the NHS. Some believed that the EU is doomed to imminent collapse, and have been saying so for about a decade. Some imagined that the EU would give us the same deal outside of the EU as we had inside so there would be no downsides - that's proving to be laughable as well. 

Truth is the only plan that was put forward has been rejected by both pro and anti brexit MPs.

Honestly I'm looking forward to a hard brexit. Hopefully it'll be a few years in the making, giving me a chance to get out to watch from a distance. 

[Igorlegend11]

Just now, McRamFan said:

Who are the two biggest economies in the world?

How many States or provinces do they have?

Where does the EU, as a trade block, rank against them?

Before anyone Jack's off about capitalism destroying the world, humanity does have the capability to get its head out of its arse when needed.

Irish border, easy give NI back to Eire, just like the rest of the countries that have become independent, but happy to remain in the commonwealth.

 

Well that's frankly hilarious and scary viewpoint, as well as ignorant of the wishes of the NI population. Plus it would lead at best to a civil war. 

Liberal views of let's make things fair always ignores a good 50% of affected people and 99% of the time ignores reality as an inconvenience 

[McRainy]

31 minutes ago, Highgate said:

No wonder you are somewhat disillusioned with the whole 'European Project' then.  ? 

Leavers are gullible, xenophobic and irresponsible, whilst remainers are intelligent, progressive and culturally sophisticated; isn't that the general narrative?

The UK seeks national isolation and a return to a mythical past, whilst the EU represents a kind of Star Trek next generation style enlightenment for the future of humankind. 

It would indeed be disheartening if it turned out to be just another corrupt gravy train for a power hungry and self serving elite. 

[McRainy]

6 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

we started this process with a plan that just said brexit, and nobody had a vision for anything after.

Nobody knows what will come after. There is no crystal ball, we just leave and get on with it. That's what I voted for. 

[Igorlegend11]

10 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Laughable. If it's a bad decision it makes no sense to continue. I know that you are so committed to the Brexit mantra it's inconceivable it won't be a glorious success, but we started this process with a plan that just said brexit, and nobody had a vision for anything after. Some people believed it meant less foreign people, some thought it meant more money for the NHS. Some believed that the EU is doomed to imminent collapse, and have been saying so for about a decade. Some imagined that the EU would give us the same deal outside of the EU as we had inside so there would be no downsides - that's proving to be laughable as well. 

Truth is the only plan that was put forward has been rejected by both pro and anti brexit MPs.

Honestly I'm looking forward to a hard brexit. Hopefully it'll be a few years in the making, giving me a chance to get out to watch from a distance. 

The plan was only offer EU would make.

Short term I can easily acknowledge if EU give us a crap deal we will suffer early on economically 

To leave a nice peaceful UK island just because we make our own laws, have democratically elected leaders whom we can vote in/out and because we have a different trading relationship with a pretty small trading block is your choice.  You won't leave and if you do for the above reasons more fool you.

[Van der MoodHoover]

10 minutes ago, McRainy said:

Nobody knows what will come after. There is no crystal ball, we just leave and get on with it. That's what I voted for. 

You're altering the Brexit narrative though......what's happened to the "global Britain " striking fearlessly independent deals across the globe with a stellar line-up of eager nations?

THAT was the narrative....there wasn't anything in it about rebuilding our own industries or being self sufficient. Just taking back control and being global.

Have I been sold a pup?

[McRainy]

10 minutes ago, HantsRam said:

You're altering the Brexit narrative though......what's happened to the "global Britain " striking fearlessly independent deals across the globe with a stellar line-up of eager nations?

THAT was the narrative....there wasn't anything in it about rebuilding our own industries or being self sufficient. Just taking back control and being global.

Have I been sold a pup?

But I thought there was no plan: you can't have it both ways, surely?

I voted to leave the EU, plain and simple, because I don't like what the EU is, and I don't like the direction it's going in.

That was the question, do you want to stay or leave, and I was promised that the result would be carried out. 

Everything else is a fudge.