The Politics Thread 2019

[SSD]

 

Love this sketch. Harry and Paul summed Question Time up perfectly for me. I can’t watch the show anymore since I saw this.

[McRainy]

59 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

Far more believable that the whole thing is all a money laundering front from somewhere.

I thought it was pretty much common knowledge he was funded by American far right, anti Islamic, pro Israeli hate groups.

Correct me if I'm wrong. 

[1of4]

I see Labour have finally come out in the support for a new referendum.

[Stive Pesley]

4 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

I see Labour have finally come out in the support for a new referendum.

Yep - moving towards the end game now. Be amazed if Corbyn is still the Labour leader by the time we get to such a referendum

This is never going to be sorted until we have a vote between Remain and an achievable, buttoned down "this is what it means for every aspect" leaving deal

 

[Stive Pesley]

11 minutes ago, McRainy said:

I thought it was pretty much common knowledge he was funded by American far right, anti Islamic, pro Israeli hate groups.

Correct me if I'm wrong. 

Not sure I've seen any proof, but certainly strongly rumoured

[1of4]

36 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

Yep - moving towards the end game now. Be amazed if Corbyn is still the Labour leader by the time we get to such a referendum

This is never going to be sorted until we have a vote between Remain and an achievable, buttoned down "this is what it means for every aspect" leaving deal

 

Yep, Give me a truthful explanation of how we are going to leave and show me how it will affect our economy. Then I might even vote for it. 

Can never understand why brexiteers call a second referendum undemocratic. If as they claim, that nobody as changed their mind on the issue. Then they will still win the vote. There's a good possibility that if there is a clear plan on how we leave, then even more people could vote out. Also a better conducted referendum may get a more wide spread acceptance of the final result.

[Mick Brolly]

2 hours ago, 1of4 said:

Can never understand why brexiteers call a second referendum undemocratic

I think its because we've already voted.

[Uptherams]

2 hours ago, 1of4 said:

Yep, Give me a truthful explanation of how we are going to leave and show me how it will affect our economy. Then I might even vote for it. 

Can never understand why brexiteers call a second referendum undemocratic. If as they claim, that nobody as changed their mind on the issue. Then they will still win the vote. There's a good possibility that if there is a clear plan on how we leave, then even more people could vote out. Also a better conducted referendum may get a more wide spread acceptance of the final result.

We voted to leave for many reasons. Once all those who talk our country down are removed from positions of power in our political structures, Brexit will turn out to be successful, economically. We'll never flourish with a bunch of Debbie downers. 

[Igorlegend11]

1 hour ago, Mick Brolly said:

I think its because we've already voted.

I think stating the obvious may not wash with some, but hopefully the humour will assist in understanding democracy

[Igorlegend11]

13 hours ago, 1of4 said:

The EU will probably not exist as it is today. I'd still want us to be a part of it, so we can have a say on how the E U should be run in the coming years because I believe it will be detrimental to our country if we cease being a member.

You are often found asking to know what post brexit will look like, yet I would hope you know that trade talks cannot happen until we leave and are estimated to take two years to agree a trade deal. ( another EU rule that lead to such a state of negotiations. Trade talks could of course ran in parallel and in good faith. ) 

Anyway, back to your incredible post.

No matter what the EU ends up like, and you note it will probably change, you want the UK to be in it.

That really is entering into the unknown and joining 20+ countries within the EU run by unelected commissionaires and you think we should be one of the members because we would then have a say in how they all run the EU.

What evidence do you have we will be worse off?  I sense it's just a hunch?

I can give you a pretty good likely example of continuing change in the EU. ( A change remainers said would not happen, only for it to then start to be formed immediately after the leave vote )

The EU will have and is forming its own military.  Should we fall under the EU army and provide our people and resources to fight as an EU army ?  

Or should we be different to the EU army and member states and should we run our own army independently of the EU army ? ( If we do it's unlikely we'd have a say in what the EU did with its own army. )

The EU army was never ever on the cards when we joined the EEC. Never on cards when we signed Maastricht nor the Lisbon Treaty.  

You see, it's a big thing giving away control of the UK army to do as they are told by the EU commissionaires and President.

 

[ketteringram]

5 hours ago, 1of4 said:

Yep, Give me a truthful explanation of how we are going to leave and show me how it will affect our economy. Then I might even vote for it. 

Can never understand why brexiteers call a second referendum undemocratic. If as they claim, that nobody as changed their mind on the issue. Then they will still win the vote. There's a good possibility that if there is a clear plan on how we leave, then even more people could vote out. Also a better conducted referendum may get a more wide spread acceptance of the final result.

If, or more probably, when, there is a second referendum, and if the result was to leave again, I still can't see parliament voting that through. 

What I think will happen, is a labour government, led by Tom Watson, will hold a second vote, and that remain would win it. They will campaign to remain and reform. But they won't bother with the reform part. 

[Igorlegend11]

5 hours ago, 1of4 said:

Can never understand why brexiteers call a second referendum undemocratic.

You are Vince Cable and I claim my £1 and a meal in a nice Islington Restaurant 

It's  because a lot of democratically minded voters would refuse to vote again.

Leave voters would then insist the UK have a referendum on how to continue as a member of the EU - can we return and take up the reforms the EU offered Cameron in 2016. Or do we ignore those reforms now?

Can we even ask for our £7bn ANNUAL Rebate back given away by Blair?  and we can only continue in the EU if we can get a deal we are in the majority happy with?

I mention this ..... as the whole reason referendum are kept simple is to provide clarity.  Our MP's and remainers have refused to accept clarity.  May in her Lancaster speech gave great clairty.  We were leaving everything. Customs Union, single market. No begging to be left in. We voted leave after all.  

What subsequently happened was a disastrous pull back on that position as more and more MP's sought to undermine brexit and the people's vote undertaken in 2016. 

The next people's vote is spoken in such terms as if the people never had a vote in the first place. . ( a similar feeling was accurately felt after Maastricht and Lisbon were passed ). 

Yet 33million people voted in 2016.

[Comrade 86]

16 minutes ago, Igorlegend11 said:

You are Vince Cable and I claim my £1 and a meal in a nice Islington Restaurant 

It's  because a lot of democratically minded voters would refuse to vote again.

Leave voters would then insist the UK have a referendum on how to continue as a member of the EU - can we return and take up the reforms the EU offered Cameron in 2016. Or do we ignore those reforms now?

Can we even ask for our £7bn ANNUAL Rebate back given away by Blair?  and we can only continue in the EU if we can get a deal we are in the majority happy with?

I mention this ..... as the whole reason referendum are kept simple is to provide clarity.  Our MP's and remainers have refused to accept clarity.  May in her Lancaster speech gave great clairty.  We were leaving everything. Customs Union, single market. No begging to be left in. We voted leave after all.  

What subsequently happened was a disastrous pull back on that position as more and more MP's sought to undermine brexit and the people's vote undertaken in 2016. 

The next people's vote is spoken in such terms as if the people never had a vote in the first place. . ( a similar feeling was accurately felt after Maastricht and Lisbon were passed ). 

Yet 33million people voted in 2016.

Read a lot of your stuff over the last few days. Have to say, your arguments are mostly tenuous and often downright bizarre. As regards the above example, could you qualify the staement in bold. You appear to be saying that democratically minded folk (I assume you are implying leave voters) would snub the opportunity to reinfoce their original stance were a second referendum called, thereby gifting the result to the remain camp. Is this a correct understanding of your logic stream?

[Igorlegend11]

8 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Read a lot of your stuff over the last few days. Have to say, your arguments are mostly tenuous and often downright bizarre. As regards the above example, could you qualify the staement in bold. You appear to be saying that democratically minded folk (I assume you are implying leave voters) would snub the opportunity to reinfoce their original stance were a second referendum called, thereby gifting the result to the remain camp. Is this a correct nderstanding of your logic stream?

I know leave and remain voters who would not vote in another referendum again.

I'd be more minded to vote if the same question were asked and the referendum merely re run. But it won't be handled that simple way 

Would we have subsequent referendums where the voters get to decide how we rejoin the EU?

Do you think Cameron's 2016 small concessions given to the EU should be still granted or would we rejoin on 2015 terms ? 

Would you even wish the UK to ask for our 7bn rebate back?

 

Tenuous and bizarre arguments are there to be debated, or simply "labelled" if they can't be refuted, which you seem to be doing.

I recall trying to show why there will be no border between Ireland.  If you think there will be a border that would be most interesting to hear why, how it will exist across 200roads and avoid upseting the peace in Ireland.

[McRainy]

14 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Read a lot of your stuff over the last few days. Have to say, your arguments are mostly tenuous and often downright bizarre. As regards the above example, could you qualify the staement in bold. You appear to be saying that democratically minded folk (I assume you are implying leave voters) would snub the opportunity to reinfoce their original stance were a second referendum called, thereby gifting the result to the remain camp. Is this a correct understanding of your logic stream?

Yup, he's right. I, for one, wouldn't vote again, and I know many others who feel the same.

[Uptherams]

38 minutes ago, ketteringram said:

If, or more probably, when, there is a second referendum, and if the result was to leave again, I still can't see parliament voting that through. 

What I think will happen, is a labour government, led by Tom Watson, will hold a second vote, and that remain would win it. They will campaign to remain and reform. But they won't bother with the reform part. 

In what way are Labour going to be the government? ? You do realise that if you remove Scottish and London constituencies, Labour's national share is appalling in regards to latest polling. It's being propped up. 

https://data.london.gov.uk/apps_and_analysis/the-2017-general-election-the-numbers-behind-the-result/

[Comrade 86]

28 minutes ago, Igorlegend11 said:

Tenuous and bizarre arguments are there to be debated, or simply "labelled" if they can't be refuted, which you seem to be doing.

Haven't refuted anything bud before you go into full 'launch mode' again I simply asked you a question. I sense it's best left there really!

[1of4]

10 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Read a lot of your stuff over the last few days. Have to say, your arguments are mostly tenuous and often downright bizarre. As regards the above example, could you qualify the staement in bold. You appear to be saying that democratically minded folk (I assume you are implying leave voters) would snub the opportunity to reinfoce their original stance were a second referendum called, thereby gifting the result to the remain camp. Is this a correct nderstanding of your logic stream?

Good luck in trying to follow Igor's logic. I think @ronnieronalde gave up after banging his head on a brick wall. Me, I'm using humour, as Igor suggested himself in one of his post. So every time he posts I visualise him as either trolling, being a WUM or my favourite one, is of him as a russian cyber operative. Which after seeing the way some of his post are grammatically constructed, may not be far from the truth.

 

[Comrade 86]

21 minutes ago, McRainy said:

Yup, he's right. I, for one, wouldn't vote again, and I know many others who feel the same.

Fair enough. It had never even occurred to me that folk would adopt that stance, but then nothing about the process thus far has made much sense to me so perhaps I should not be surprised.

[Comrade 86]

6 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

Good luck in trying to follow Igor's logic. I think @ronnieronalde gave up after banging his head on a brick wall. Me, I'm using humour, as Igor suggested himself in one of his post. So every time he posts I visualise him as either trolling, being a WUM or my favourite one, is of him as a russian cyber operative. Which after seeing the way some of his post are grammatically constructed, may not be far from the truth.

 

To be fair my point didn't relate to the question I asked. I'm genuinely surprised that leave voters would abandon ship in the advent of a second referendum. I'd assumed that there would be an even higher percetage of thos wanting to leave attending the polls to ram home the message that their opinions have not changed and to ensure that the result of the first vote was honoured. I don't pretend to understand the logic but I can see why folk on both sides of the fence are disheatened and disenchanted with the they way the entire process has been mismanaged. 

Some of the other stuff though.... ?‍♀️