The Politics Thread 2019

[Igorlegend11]

1 hour ago, eddie said:

I bet you're looking forward to your splendid isolation. Perhaps you can write a book - '101 ways to cook dandelions'.

We fought major wars in name of democracy.   How we can willingly remain tied to an undemocratic federal state, without question, shows it's just a populist leftie position to say we want to be part of the EU state 

SNP need to be careful what they wish.  They want out the UK, yet in the EU.  I wish them every success. We can leave EU as we have HMRC. We have DVLA.

Scots have no real state apparatus. And will insist on using the UK's institutions and system, the very ones they want to leave ????

Like the Irish, they best get building their mythical wall and border points.  Which they will never ever do, but will moan it's "not fair" no hard border exists

[Uptherams]

 

[McRainy]

1 hour ago, eddie said:

I bet you're looking forward to your splendid isolation. Perhaps you can write a book - '101 ways to cook dandelions'.

I'll answer you properly, even though you don't afford me the same consideration. 

I'm not interested in isolation, splendid or otherwise. I'm interested in democracy, justice for all, and a sustainable future on this planet. The EU is currently a major obstacle to all three, although it is certainly not alone in that. 

You equate the EU with internationalism, as if the interests of the banking and corporate sector are synonymous with the interests of the general population. That is manifestly not the case. 

We cannot continue to pursue economic growth at all costs. The markets are financialised on a global scale, and the only way for the 1% to continue to extract profit from the system is through squeezing the workforce dry.

There is a deliberate agenda to do just that, through attacks on education, health, welfare, pay and conditions, and the power of collective bargaining to defend them. This is a systematic assault, intended to create insecurity and powerlessness. 

EU policies such as free movement of people and capital shift the balance of power by freeing corporations from many of the retraints of national government, like wage protection and taxation. It is this very insecurity which is the driver towards nationalism and the extreme right, as an unrepresented working class seek protection wherever it is offered. 

And then there is climate change. We do not have the time  left to continue with a myopic liberalism which entrusts the corporate sector to regulate itself. You won't be getting your cookbook, I'm afraid, because there won't be any dandelions left. 

[Stive Pesley]

We've not mentioned our racist hatemonger chum Mr Laxley Lennon for a while, but I hear he's just been found guilty on all 3 counts of contempt of court. Sentencing at a later date.

Have a good weekend all

[ronnieronalde]

Interesting views there @McRainy. I like @eddie a lot but also feel at times his answers are short shrift and I believe he may even be proud of the fact he's a bit cantankerous (sorry if I'm wrong there, it's not meant as a nasty insult).

I've had too much time on my hands and I'm also at that age where you start to look at yourself and think have I done enough, am I doing enough. So I'm aware I may come across as a bit of a weirdo here.

In my opinion there IS an agenda from the wealthy to maintain and increase their position and power no matter what the cost.

It's led me to look a lot at things like globalistion, defence, war, climate, plastic pollution, the "fast" fashion industry and it's policies (google cotton production and Aral sea disappearance), and finally central banks and which countries have them. I've done too much reading and too much listening if I'm honest.

There is irreversible damage being done, to communities, to entire countries populations and to our own planet, irreversible damage being done to someone else's future.

You've only got to watch the BBC programme on plastic reduction to see though that the intention of the wealthy, the business owners to continue to drive growth. Everyone in the world knows we're producing too much single use plastic. Jim Ratcliffe (the UK's richest man?) owns the biggest single plastic producer on the planet, Ineos based in Scotland, his plans and in fact the plans of the Plastic Industry Association? To double growth by 2040.

He justifies that growth target by saying "all of the plastic we produce is recyclable WHEN IT LEAVES their plant. Oh. that's alright then, your hands are clean.

They know we're ducked, we know we're ducked but the adults of this world - those who are meant to know better, those who are meant to be responsible for "looking after" the children, they're the ones who are putting their fingers in their ears and trying to a) ignore it and b) tells us we're wrong and stupid for buying the "conspiracy theories".

All so they can make even more money on top of the obscene amount they have already.

I wonder how many people know that McDonalds is the biggest toy distributor in the world? ducking McDonalds, not content with making people obese are now putting 1 BILLION plastic toys a year into the environment to help encourage parents to make their kids even fatter. Buy a happy meal get a free plastic toy FFS. Double whammy.

We've got a teenager from Sweden who speaks more sense than any adult I've listened to on climate control.

Two girls aged 11 and 7 are petitioning McDonalds and Burger King to stop producing toys which no-one needs and which end up in land fill sites unable to be re-cycled. 161,000 people sign that petition and ducking McDonalds get an adult, FAT, security guard to come and escort them off the building. A ducking security guard? Not head of production, not the CEO, not even his PA, a security guard.

The kids can see what is going wrong but they have no power. 

The adults can see what is going wrong but seemingly don't give a poo as long as their time on this planet isn't affected.

We're meant to be the clever ones. We're meant to be the responsible ones. Respect your elders and betters we're told from a very young age.

The elders and betters are ducking us all over.

[McRainy]

Absolutely spot on, @ronnieronalde.

I like @eddie too, but his glib put downs and patronising comments don't do justice to the conversation, and stand in stark contrast to heartfelt soul searching like your own. Could do better. 

Incidentally, if you want a conspiracy theory, I've heard that even Greta Thunberg is a corporate shill, along with those behind the XR protests. Those in power creating an outlet for people's fear and frustration,  which offers no threat to the existing order whatsoever. Why do you think XR's main policy is cooperating with the police? Cue spooky music ? 

[Igorlegend11]

2 hours ago, McRainy said:

I'll answer you properly, even though you don't afford me the same consideration. 

. 

And then there is climate change. We do not have the time  left to continue with a myopic liberalism which entrusts the corporate sector to regulate itself. You won't be getting your cookbook, I'm afraid, because there won't be any dandelions left. 

The left will debate a plenty, have great ideas like referendums that our liberal party campaigned for for years, but they will always know best and try and trample over democracy if it affects their fluffy happy clappy world.

How the liberals can say the Leave campaign was dishonest is a travesty. They were fundamentally dishonest in only ever accepting one result of the people.  This is a once in a thousand years chance to escape EU federalism.  As a nation we have drifted away from democracy and happily ignore 17m people and claim the 17m don't understand.  

History will not look kindly upon those who tried to block brexit.

For those worried about dandelions cook books, just remember what it felt like having no say and no vote, the poor and all women alike had no vote. Just the rich could vote.

We've progressed over the years and are now trying to regress by way of those who protest or moan the loudest about a democratic vote.

And also, for a reference point , our economy never collapsed, and when we were made to abandon trade with New Zealand in the 1970's, it took 7or8 years and New Zealand despite a two year economic shock was ahead of where it's economy would have grown anyway if it could have still traded with the UK 

[Highgate]

3 hours ago, Igorlegend11 said:

We fought major wars in name of democracy.   How we can willingly remain tied to an undemocratic federal state, without question, shows it's just a populist leftie position to say we want to be part of the EU state 

SNP need to be careful what they wish.  They want out the UK, yet in the EU.  I wish them every success. We can leave EU as we have HMRC. We have DVLA.

Scots have no real state apparatus. And will insist on using the UK's institutions and system, the very ones they want to leave ????

Like the Irish, they best get building their mythical wall and border points.  Which they will never ever do, but will moan it's "not fair" no hard border exists

No you didn't.  You may have fought one war against fascist Germany, but an Imperial power can hardly claim to be fighting in the name of democracy.  It simply wasn't about that....but the myth lives on for some reason.

Speaking of myth, why on Earth would Ireland want to build a wall, when a hard border on the island is the one thing that it desperately wants to avoid?

[McRainy]

53 minutes ago, Igorlegend11 said:

They were fundamentally dishonest in only ever accepting one result of the people.

The biggest lie of the referendum was that the establishment would respect the result. 

There is a powerful elite which does not want ordinary people to determine the course of their own lives. Once we start asking for things which interefere with profitability, then the situation is class war, pure and simple.

There is no compromise between the interests of the wealthy elite and the needs of the rest of us. The fact that someone like Richard Branson can sue the NHS for loss of profitability should tell you all you need to know. 

It is absolutely the fault of the left that they have failed to address this situation. The problem isn't the other issues which have been taken up, but the total loss of any class solidarity in tackling the root causes.

That anyone who considers themselves a socialist can back an institution like the EU is an absolute travesty. The second biggest lie of the referendum is the veneer of progressive internationalism with which the EU cloaks itself. The people who believe that are the real dupes, not those of us who have opposed the EU from the left for the last forty years. 

[Van der MoodHoover]

13 hours ago, maxjam said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/european-commission-president-ursula-von-der-leyen-juncker-eu-parliament-a8987841.html

The European parliament’s political groups have united to condemn the selection of the next European Commission president, branding the process an undemocratic stitch-up by national governments.

EU leaders chose Ursula von der Leyen as their pick to replace Jean-Claude Juncker as the leader of the European Union’s executive branch despite the fact she was not on the ballot paper as a candidate and has no manifesto.

The main reason why I personally voted to leave was to bring accountability closer to home.  As the saying goes, 'power corrupts, absolutely power corrupts absolutely' it will only get more insidious over time.

 

Isn't this a bit confused?

A body that anti-EU people say is undemocratic is bleating about their (presumably undemocratic) nomination being vetoed by a "stitch-up" of, er, democratically elected governments.

And you're objecting about this show of representative democratic clout?

?

[1of4]

6 hours ago, ronnieronalde said:

Interesting views there @McRainy. I like @eddie a lot but also feel at times his answers are short shrift and I believe he may even be proud of the fact he's a bit cantankerous (sorry if I'm wrong there, it's not meant as a nasty insult).

I've had too much time on my hands and I'm also at that age where you start to look at yourself and think have I done enough, am I doing enough. So I'm aware I may come across as a bit of a weirdo here.

In my opinion there IS an agenda from the wealthy to maintain and increase their position and power no matter what the cost.

It's led me to look a lot at things like globalistion, defence, war, climate, plastic pollution, the "fast" fashion industry and it's policies (google cotton production and Aral sea disappearance), and finally central banks and which countries have them. I've done too much reading and too much listening if I'm honest.

There is irreversible damage being done, to communities, to entire countries populations and to our own planet, irreversible damage being done to someone else's future.

You've only got to watch the BBC programme on plastic reduction to see though that the intention of the wealthy, the business owners to continue to drive growth. Everyone in the world knows we're producing too much single use plastic. Jim Ratcliffe (the UK's richest man?) owns the biggest single plastic producer on the planet, Ineos based in Scotland, his plans and in fact the plans of the Plastic Industry Association? To double growth by 2040.

He justifies that growth target by saying "all of the plastic we produce is recyclable WHEN IT LEAVES their plant. Oh. that's alright then, your hands are clean.

They know we're ducked, we know we're ducked but the adults of this world - those who are meant to know better, those who are meant to be responsible for "looking after" the children, they're the ones who are putting their fingers in their ears and trying to a) ignore it and b) tells us we're wrong and stupid for buying the "conspiracy theories".

All so they can make even more money on top of the obscene amount they have already.

I wonder how many people know that McDonalds is the biggest toy distributor in the world? ducking McDonalds, not content with making people obese are now putting 1 BILLION plastic toys a year into the environment to help encourage parents to make their kids even fatter. Buy a happy meal get a free plastic toy FFS. Double whammy.

We've got a teenager from Sweden who speaks more sense than any adult I've listened to on climate control.

Two girls aged 11 and 7 are petitioning McDonalds and Burger King to stop producing toys which no-one needs and which end up in land fill sites unable to be re-cycled. 161,000 people sign that petition and ducking McDonalds get an adult, FAT, security guard to come and escort them off the building. A ducking security guard? Not head of production, not the CEO, not even his PA, a security guard.

The kids can see what is going wrong but they have no power. 

The adults can see what is going wrong but seemingly don't give a poo as long as their time on this planet isn't affected.

We're meant to be the clever ones. We're meant to be the responsible ones. Respect your elders and betters we're told from a very young age.

The elders and betters are ducking us all over.

The only thing that McDonalds care about is their bottom line. Until their profits are affected by us not buying their products. McDonalds and other multinational companies like them will not face up to the responsibilities they have to society as a whole. Be it environmentally, economically or just plain and simply doing  right to the rest of society

[Igorlegend11]

4 hours ago, Highgate said:

No you didn't.  You may have fought one war against fascist Germany, but an Imperial power can hardly claim to be fighting in the name of democracy.  It simply wasn't about that....but the myth lives on for some reason.

Speaking of myth, why on Earth would Ireland want to build a wall, when a hard border on the island is the one thing that it desperately wants to avoid?

Because they ( Irish and EU ) say if it's a hard brexit and no customs union exists they cannot allow goods to pass from non EU northern Ireland into an EU territory.

Incidentally I don't for one minute believe they will build a hard border when we exit on 31st October 

As for it being a myth, it's been three years of public record saying if UK leaves the customs union then a border will be required.

It is bizarre we have nt said "be our guest, and mind the bullets" 

 

And as for democracy, it's obviously overrated elsewhere, but has developed and stood the UK in good stead for centuries.  I don't care that the EU is undemocratic.  

 

[ronnieronalde]

13 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

The only thing that McDonalds care about is their bottom line. Until their profits are affected by us not buying their products. McDonalds and other multinational companies like them will not face up to the responsibilities they have to society as a whole. Be it environmentally, economically or just plain and simply doing  right to the rest of society

100% agree, you could see from their pure contempt of that petition that they literally do not give a flying fig. They assume they're untouchable and adopt a policy of say nothing and it will eventually blow over. The shithouses.

I'm keen to see if our government (this one or the next) has the balls to push through with the 100% of cost of waste clean up and disposal needs to be met by the producer/manufacturer. At the moment I think it's 10%. Local councils are left to pay the missing 90%, it's a disgrace.

Environmentally it's not just Maccy D's though.

I live in a stunning area, every now and then I walk into Ripley and to get there I've got to walk down some beautiful country lanes.

The number of flattened Strongbow Dark Fruits cans that are on my way leads me to believe @DarkFruitsRam7 paid for his entire entourage of family, friends, budgies, ex schoolmates, my mates and their cousins to have a blow out party that lasted a week ? then we all staggered home from Wingfield Park via Ripley 'cos they'd spent their taxi money.

I think 90% of Dark Fruit sales nationally must be consumed Nr Alfreton.

And don't get me started on Costa Coffee cups.

The thing for me is, I'm so pissed off with so many things where do you start and what do you prioritise.

For my own sake (and for the sake of this thread I guess) I've got to step back, stop the soul searching across too many areas and focus all of my energy on the top thing I'd like to see changed.

If we all tried to change one thing I bet a hell of a lot of change would be achieved. If it was a corporation like McDonalds who made that tiny change, the effect would be immense.

[Highgate]

16 minutes ago, Igorlegend11 said:

Because they ( Irish and EU ) say if it's a hard brexit and no customs union exists they cannot allow goods to pass from non EU northern Ireland into an EU territory.

Incidentally I don't for one minute believe they will build a hard border when we exit on 31st October 

As for it being a myth, it's been three years of public record saying if UK leaves the customs union then a border will be required.

It is bizarre we have nt said "be our guest, and mind the bullets" 

 

And as for democracy, it's obviously overrated elsewhere, but has developed and stood the UK in good stead for centuries.  I don't care that the EU is undemocratic.  

 

In the event of a no deal brexit I guess you mean. 

In that scenario wouldn't the UK want to control it's own borders too?  Wasn't controlling the flow of people in an out of the UK one of the reasons some people in the UK voted for Brexit in the first place?  Why then, after a no deal Brexit, would the UK be content to let it's only land border with the EU wide open to migration?

[Igorlegend11]

2 hours ago, HantsRam said:

Isn't this a bit confused?

A body that anti-EU people say is undemocratic is bleating about their (presumably undemocratic) nomination being vetoed by a "stitch-up" of, er, democratically elected governments.

And you're objecting about this show of representative democratic clout?

?

The glaring issue is this......why should 20+ governments need to appoint 9 commissionaires to run their federal amalgamation of countries ?

Who says when/if the NEWLY created EU army goes into battle?   The "elected" commissionaires or the big government of the EU ( that would be the peace loving Germans ) 

[Igorlegend11]

10 minutes ago, Highgate said:

In the event of a no deal brexit I guess you mean. 

In that scenario wouldn't the UK want to control it's own borders too?  Wasn't controlling the flow of people in an out of the UK one of the reasons some people in the UK voted for Brexit in the first place?  Why then, after a no deal Brexit, would the UK be content to let it's only land border with the EU wide open to migration?

Because being sensible and practical and upholding the Good Friday agreement the UK knows it would be senseless and damaging to have a hard border.  It's being pragmatic 

The Southern Irish are not rammed with "poor" EU migrants so it's never been a place the EU migrants have sought to travel to.  It's likely to not be a good idea either for an EU migrant to travel through Ireland. 

IF it became a gateway to entering the UK, then border restrictions at ports and airports ( passport needed ) would suffice.  There's an open border now.  There will be one after 31st October too.

The EU says it needs a bard border.  It can't build one physically.  And it also says it's ready for a hard brexit.   Smoke and mirrors and the EU will soon meet its match when a PM tells them we are leaving in 31st October 

As this is a shock to EU I personally would have favoured Michael Gives approach of allow uoto 3months of talks with the EU beyond 31st October.  The remaining PM candidates both seem pretty clear that the EU won't budge hence it will just be a case of we leave.

It's perfectly acceptable to then negotiate trade deals, and still try and complete an alignment of standards for goods and services . But against a backdrop of we have LEFT 

It would be sensible of the EU to immediately commence the transition period ( IE change nothing to protect economic outputs of both parties ) 

However, having spent three years telling the UK how the negotiations were going to be conducted they are going to look rather silly if they make us complete a hard brexit 

 

[Highgate]

24 minutes ago, Igorlegend11 said:

Because being sensible and practical and upholding the Good Friday agreement the UK knows it would be senseless and damaging to have a hard border.  It's being pragmatic 

The Southern Irish are not rammed with "poor" EU migrants so it's never been a place the EU migrants have sought to travel to.  It's likely to not be a good idea either for an EU migrant to travel through Ireland. 

IF it became a gateway to entering the UK, then border restrictions at ports and airports ( passport needed ) would suffice.  There's an open border now.  There will be one after 31st October too.

How is this going to be achieved? Passport checks between N.Ireland and Britain would be enrage Unionists and they've made their implacable opposition to the notion of a border down the Irish Sea more than clear.

Incidentally I think the UK has about 4% of it's population born in other EU countries while in the Republic of Ireland that figure is roughly 8% (shortly to be reduced dramatically by Brexit).

[eddie]

18 hours ago, McRainy said:

You're just a pointless troll on this subject. 

Pointless?

My point has consistently been that Brexit is an example of collective suicide whereby a majority of gullible people voted for self-destruction based entirely on a catalogue of lies. Three years on, the United Kingdom continues its downward spiral, getting closer and closer to the day when we can re-claim our title of "The sick man of Europe" - and we haven't even left yet.

 

[McRainy]

20 minutes ago, eddie said:

Pointless?

My point has consistently been that Brexit is an example of collective suicide whereby a majority of gullible people voted for self-destruction based entirely on a catalogue of lies. Three years on, the United Kingdom continues its downward spiral, getting closer and closer to the day when we can re-claim our title of "The sick man of Europe" - and we haven't even left yet.

 

And you have reinforced this point by insulting the intelligence of anyone who disagrees, rather than actually engaging with the issues they raise. 

Ironically it is this very arrogance which lost the referendum in the first place. 

[1of4]

9 hours ago, Igorlegend11 said:

Because being sensible and practical and upholding the Good Friday agreement the UK knows it would be senseless and damaging to have a hard border.  It's being pragmatic 

The Southern Irish are not rammed with "poor" EU migrants so it's never been a place the EU migrants have sought to travel to.  It's likely to not be a good idea either for an EU migrant to travel through Ireland. 

IF it became a gateway to entering the UK, then border restrictions at ports and airports ( passport needed ) would suffice. 

By simply walking across the presently open border from ROI into NI you enter the UK. So where do you suggest we place place border restrictions and passport controls after we leave the EU?

Maybe we can have a border control between NI and Great Britain.

Oh wait, hasn't our own government already stated this is a none starter.

 

 

There's an open border now.  There will be one after 31st October too.

The EU says it needs a bard border.  It can't build one physically.  And it also says it's ready for a hard brexit.   Smoke and mirrors and the EU will soon meet its match when a PM tells them we are leaving in 31st October 

As this is a shock to EU I personally would have favoured Michael Gives approach of allow uoto 3months of talks with the EU beyond 31st October.  The remaining PM candidates both seem pretty clear that the EU won't budge hence it will just be a case of we leave.

It's perfectly acceptable to then negotiate trade deals, and still try and complete an alignment of standards for goods and services . But against a backdrop of we have LEFT 

It would be sensible of the EU to immediately commence the transition period ( IE change nothing to protect economic outputs of both parties ) 

However, having spent three years telling the UK how the negotiations were going to be conducted they are going to look rather silly if they make us complete a hard brexit 

How are the EU making us complete a hard brexit? They negotiated an agreement with our government, which our own Parliament then voted to reject. It appears that it's Johnson, Hunt and their supporters that want to make the country go through a hard brexit.

As for being told by the EU on how the negotiations would be conducted. Didn't brexit campaigners tell us that any negotiations would be easily concluded in five minutes?