The Politics Thread 2019

[Van der MoodHoover]

51 minutes ago, Igorlegend11 said:

It has a border with Russia as you state, at Kaliningrad. This has been increased due to military perceived threat. 

"Because Kaliningrad Oblast is small, homogeneous and an exclave within the European Union, in 2011 the whole Oblast was granted the status of border area eligible to local border traffic rules. In reciprocity, the following Polish administrative districts (powiaty) were granted the same status:[16]"

So you can see when it suits the EU local acceptance of goods moving is allowed 

Kaliningrad ( Russia ) also borders Poland 

In 2015 due to military threat Poland and the EU installed video cameras as a means of observing traffic driving across the border. Technology of video cameras costing £2m pounds. !!

We plan to be fully operational by June this year."

Poland's border with Kaliningrad is part of the external border of the European Union, with four road crossings into the Kaliningrad exclave.

Last year 3.2 million Poles and 3.3 million Russians passed through the border crossings, PAP reports.

The fact is the EU does not and never has required a hard border with a non military threatening state.

There is no need for a hard border in Ireland and that's my main point, not well explained in case of Lithuanian border. 

There is currently no land border in the world between nations NOT in a Customs union, where electronic checks are the sole checks. 

Does that count as an "indisputable fact"? Or are you thinking that the UK and ROI will be pioneers in this area?

?

[Igorlegend11]

12 minutes ago, alexxxxx said:

If you read through the directive that you quote, it still states in Article 6 that member states are required to conduct exit and entrance checks on documentation. The directive just outlines a standard way for schengen countries to agree with third countries to allow those living in border regions to move across the borders without the need for visas. This isn't the same as no hard border. There are still checks. 

 

I get that.  But what is missed is a fence was only built 2 or 3 years ago due to perceived military threat from Russia, and no doubt a desire after we voted out to claim a hard border exists all over the EU 

There is no military threat and no way the Irish can not will build a fence across their border with the UK. And that won't be unusual in the EU recent history.

[Igorlegend11]

17 minutes ago, HantsRam said:

There is currently no land border in the world between nations NOT in a Customs union, where electronic checks are the sole checks. 

Does that count as an "indisputable fact"? Or are you thinking that the UK and ROI will be pioneers in this area?

?

Poland and Russia. No physical border until three years ago. None. No fence.  Just walk across. How can you electronically check something the border guards don't see? 

Quite why people think the EU have a valid point and they will build a border and cause civil war and may deaths is beyond me. But you can believ what you like.  There will simply be no border built. They may put up video cameras at road crossings like in the east of Europe. Track vehicles and how often they cross then investigate. Currently EU say technology used in eastern Europe won't work in Ireland.  Fine.   It's their choice.  To build or not build. 

Do you think the Irish will build a fence and border checks across the border after we complete a hard brexit in 31st October ?

Serious question. 

You see, if they don't then the whole issue drifts away and in 1st November we can start adult sensibke talks about our future relationship with a block we have left but wish to maintain trade with on prior existing terms. 

[alexxxxx]

26 minutes ago, Igorlegend11 said:

I get that.  But what is missed is a fence was only built 2 or 3 years ago due to perceived military threat from Russia, and no doubt a desire after we voted out to claim a hard border exists all over the EU 

There is no military threat and no way the Irish can not will build a fence across their border with the UK. And that won't be unusual in the EU recent history.

The border control aren't there to protect from invasion, though. It's to enforce the controls on people and goods. 

There's no threat of turkey invading Bulgaria but still have controls there. 

There's no threat of Norway and Sweden going to war, but there are still restrictions on goods crossing the border. 

Canada and the USA have a hard border. 

I think they'll eventually find a way to fudge it, but it'll make a mockery of the brexit mantra of taking back control of our borders.

The common travel area already introduces ways of illegal entry into the UK from Ireland which is exploited. 

https://www.irishcentral.com/news/politics/immigration-britain-via-irish-border

When the UK leaves the EU, illegal immigration from the EU will be undetectable through northern ireland. 

[Igorlegend11]

21 minutes ago, alexxxxx said:

The border control aren't there to protect from invasion, though. It's to enforce the controls on people and goods. 

There's no threat of turkey invading Bulgaria but still have controls there. 

There's no threat of Norway and Sweden going to war, but there are still restrictions on goods crossing the border. 

Canada and the USA have a hard border. 

I think they'll eventually find a way to fudge it, but it'll make a mockery of the brexit mantra of taking back control of our borders.

The common travel area already introduces ways of illegal entry into the UK from Ireland which is exploited. 

https://www.irishcentral.com/news/politics/immigration-britain-via-irish-border

When the UK leaves the EU, illegal immigration from the EU will be undetectable through northern ireland. 

Exactly my conclusion on the outcome in Ireland.  A compromise to ensure we leave EU.

The border fences only went up in Poland three years ago following perceived military threat. Before that goods and people could just cross. And that's how it seems we both conclude that the Irish border will work.

It's a means to an end.

And we can ( controversially ) put checks in place between NI and mainland UK a year or so after ( particularly after a general election and no need to have DUP in government.

Migrants could cross via Ireland into the north as at today.  They choose not to as far as I can tell.

Again technology and discreet checks can see is flying or sailing into the Republic of Ireland.      And the Northern Irish won't be tolerant of migrants seeking "protection" and will actively encourage them to go back to alternative safety in the Republic or Ireland. 

There will be no financial incentive for an EU migrant to meander into the UK. They won't get money from UK anymore as an EU citizen. 

 

And an expert from your helpful link is :

"You don’t solve these problems by having lots of checks on the border. The way of disrupting trafficking is all intelligence-led. It is not like walking down the street and tackling a burglary.”

An Iranian migrant who previously made the trip recently spoke to the BBC about the journey and how he was “not worried” about security in Dublin.

“When I got on the plane I was not worried,” he said.

“When we arrived in Dublin, I went through passport control - I passed through the checks and was able to leave.

“This route from Dublin is still fresh and the police do not focus on it as they do at Gatwick or Heathrow.”

 

Brexit does not increase the risk.

If anything it reduces it as we won't provide a NI no not jobs to the migrants.  They could move into the black economy. But that way they are self surging as opposed to currently surviving on our state benefits generosity.

[ronnieronalde]

54 minutes ago, Igorlegend11 said:

Poland and Russia. No physical border until three years ago. None. No fence.  Just walk across. How can you electronically check something the border guards don't see? 

Quite why people think the EU have a valid point and they will build a border and cause civil war and may deaths is beyond me. But you can believ what you like.  There will simply be no border built. They may put up video cameras at road crossings like in the east of Europe. Track vehicles and how often they cross then investigate. Currently EU say technology used in eastern Europe won't work in Ireland.  Fine.   It's their choice.  To build or not build. 

Do you think the Irish will build a fence and border checks across the border after we complete a hard brexit in 31st October ?

Serious question. 

You see, if they don't then the whole issue drifts away and in 1st November we can start adult sensibke talks about our future relationship with a block we have left but wish to maintain trade with on prior existing terms. 

I think you might need to re-check that Igor pal.

I've just asked my Polish ex mum in law and as far as she's concerned there has always been a "hard" border between Poland and Russia, it's not like historically they've enjoyed the best relationship either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland–Russia_border 

***** edited to add wiki link*******

[Rev]

18 minutes ago, Igorlegend11 said:

Exactly my conclusion on the outcome in Ireland.  A compromise to ensure we leave EU.

The border fences only went up in Poland three years ago following perceived military threat. Before that goods and people could just cross. And that's how it seems we both conclude that the Irish border will work.

It's a means to an end.

And we can ( controversially ) put checks in place between NI and mainland UK a year or so after ( particularly after a general election and no need to have DUP in government.

Migrants could cross via Ireland into the north as at today.  They choose not to as far as I can tell.

Again technology and discreet checks can see is flying or sailing into the Republic of Ireland.      And the Northern Irish won't be tolerant of migrants seeking "protection" and will actively encourage them to go back to alternative safety in the Republic or Ireland. 

There will be no financial incentive for an EU migrant to meander into the UK. They won't get money from UK anymore as an EU citizen. 

 

And an expert from your helpful link is :

"You don’t solve these problems by having lots of checks on the border. The way of disrupting trafficking is all intelligence-led. It is not like walking down the street and tackling a burglary.”

An Iranian migrant who previously made the trip recently spoke to the BBC about the journey and how he was “not worried” about security in Dublin.

“When I got on the plane I was not worried,” he said.

“When we arrived in Dublin, I went through passport control - I passed through the checks and was able to leave.

“This route from Dublin is still fresh and the police do not focus on it as they do at Gatwick or Heathrow.”

 

Brexit does not increase the risk.

If anything it reduces it as we won't provide a NI no not jobs to the migrants.  They could move into the black economy. But that way they are self surging as opposed to currently surviving on our state benefits generosity.

So even when survey after survey after survey has shown EU migrants are a net positive to the UK exchequer, you not only don't believe it, but would be happy for those people to join the black economy and contribute even less?

Strange argument.

[Igorlegend11]

9 minutes ago, HantsRam said:

I've no idea who you are or what you do.  I'm an accountant and a negotiator

And I don't much care.

But this decision will affect future generations so we should make it the best we can - agree 100%. Once you are on the UK side it becomes easy 

So far, your attitude of denial and rejection reminds me of Max Hastings book "Catastrophe ", which charts how the world came to  WW1. Through eerily similar assumptions and projections.  I studied European history at Uni and A levels so there was an inevitability about war, and nations arming like crazy for 20years was heading one way. 

I  fervently hope we don't follow a similar path of insisting we're right, that others concerns are not ours. And that we somehow have a magic "answer" that nobody else has thought of.     Having no border after brexit causes very little risk to neither side. Having no border helps peace.  It's practical.   It's sensible    and technology can be used as required     Biggest risk is to UK and continued EU migrants heading into UK.    Probability of the Irish building a hard border is 1%.    That you don't know and can't form a probable opinion upon says a lot about yourself.   Hazard a guess please.......it's quite easy to see there will be no hard border built 

Are you aware Tony Blair in 2005 gave away 7bn a year rebate. For nothing other than welcoming in the east Europeans and guaranteeing peace.  Blair's words.  

That was good for the EU states and bad for the UK.   

Did you at tine agree with that?

Have you agreed with it since ? 

 

[alexxxxx]

23 minutes ago, Igorlegend11 said:

Exactly my conclusion on the outcome in Ireland.  A compromise to ensure we leave EU.

The border fences only went up in Poland three years ago following perceived military threat. Before that goods and people could just cross. And that's how it seems we both conclude that the Irish border will work.

It's a means to an end.

And we can ( controversially ) put checks in place between NI and mainland UK a year or so after ( particularly after a general election and no need to have DUP in government.

Migrants could cross via Ireland into the north as at today.  They choose not to as far as I can tell.

Again technology and discreet checks can see is flying or sailing into the Republic of Ireland.      And the Northern Irish won't be tolerant of migrants seeking "protection" and will actively encourage them to go back to alternative safety in the Republic or Ireland. 

There will be no financial incentive for an EU migrant to meander into the UK. They won't get money from UK anymore as an EU citizen. 

 

And an expert from your helpful link is :

"You don’t solve these problems by having lots of checks on the border. The way of disrupting trafficking is all intelligence-led. It is not like walking down the street and tackling a burglary.”

An Iranian migrant who previously made the trip recently spoke to the BBC about the journey and how he was “not worried” about security in Dublin.

“When I got on the plane I was not worried,” he said.

“When we arrived in Dublin, I went through passport control - I passed through the checks and was able to leave.

“This route from Dublin is still fresh and the police do not focus on it as they do at Gatwick or Heathrow.”

 

Brexit does not increase the risk.

If anything it reduces it as we won't provide a NI no not jobs to the migrants.  They could move into the black economy. But that way they are self surging as opposed to currently surviving on our state benefits generosity.

What you've said there is just not true. The visa free agreement only started in 2012. https://m.spiegel.de/international/europe/poland-and-russia-test-visa-free-travel-a-847828.html

I don't get your point on illegal immigration. Most EU citizens in UK do not claim benefits, and surely if they were working, it'd be better if they were working and paying tax rather than being exploited and working in the black economy.

 

[Igorlegend11]

20 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

I think you might need to re-check that Igor pal.

I've just asked my Polish ex mum in law and as far as she's concerned there has always been a "hard" border between Poland and Russia, it's not like historically they've enjoyed the best relationship either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland–Russia_border 

***** edited to add wiki link*******

It's around Kaliningrad no physical hard border existed.  That land is russian, but was historically prussian/German/polish.

"As of 2008, there were three road crossings (Gołdap-Gusev, Bezledy-Bagrationovsk and Gronowo-Mamonovo) and three train crossing (Braniewo-Mamonovo, Skandawa-Zheleznodorozhny and Głomno-Bagrationovsk).[11][12][13] In 2010, the largest road crossing up to that point was opened at Grzechotki-Mamonovo.[14] More crossings are being built (Perły-Krylovo, Piaski-Baltiysk, Rapa-Ozyorsk), as the EU standards require Poland to operate at least seven for that border.[11] "

I agree it's best they work in proper jobs currently.  After a hard brexit they can't just walk in and get a NI number and work.  That won't be possible. 

I was commenting on what it will be like after brexit.   

[Igorlegend11]

10 minutes ago, reverendo de duivel said:

So even when survey after survey after survey has shown EU migrants are a net positive to the UK exchequer, you not only don't believe it, but would be happy for those people to join the black economy and contribute even less?

Strange argument.

It was a commentary on how the likelihood of migrants going via Ireland into the UK will decrease after brexit.  The risk is there today. And will be substantially there after. If EU migrants now in November turn up in Liverpool they won't get advantages given to them as at today.  I predict those people would instead work in black economy.  I don't propose that they do for one minute.  I'm making a sensible prediction.

It would be best if when a migrant is living safely in the Irish part of the EU they remain there.   

After Brexit there will be no more NEW  EU migrants allowed to work here, unless we have a need and choose to allow some across and into jobs.

[ronnieronalde]

14 minutes ago, Igorlegend11 said:

It's around Kaliningrad no physical hard border existed.  That land is russian, but was historically prussian/German/polish.

"As of 2008, there were three road crossings (Gołdap-Gusev, Bezledy-Bagrationovsk and Gronowo-Mamonovo) and three train crossing (Braniewo-Mamonovo, Skandawa-Zheleznodorozhny and Głomno-Bagrationovsk).[11][12][13] In 2010, the largest road crossing up to that point was opened at Grzechotki-Mamonovo.[14] More crossings are being built (Perły-Krylovo, Piaski-Baltiysk, Rapa-Ozyorsk), as the EU standards require Poland to operate at least seven for that border.[11] "

I agree it's best they work in proper jobs currently.  After a hard brexit they can't just walk in and get a NI number and work.  That won't be possible. 

I was commenting on what it will be like after brexit.   

But to say there were no checks up until 3 years ago is misleading and not true pal.

I worked in Poland but I also has spells living in Moscow (on Stary Arbat( in Prague and in Budapest, travelling between those places I was never able to pass through any border without having my documents checked. 

Whether it was by road, by train or by air, you were stopped and had to produce documents.

Some of the most frightening journeys of my life were those on trains when the border guards got on with their guns. They also obviously had the power to search you, your bags and your train compartment. They were also very ready to confiscate anything they thought you shouldn't be taking in and it definitely wasn't sensible to argue with them.

[Igorlegend11]

17 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

But to say there were no checks up until 3 years ago is misleading and not true pal.

I worked in Poland but I also has spells living in Moscow (on Stary Arbat( in Prague and in Budapest, travelling between those places I was never able to pass through any border without having my documents checked. 

Whether it was by road, by train or by air, you were stopped and had to produce documents.

Some of the most frightening journeys of my life were those on trains when the border guards got on with their guns. They also obviously had the power to search you, your bags and your train compartment. They were also very ready to confiscate anything they thought you shouldn't be taking in and it definitely wasn't sensible to argue with them.

I'm explaining poorly.   

There was no fence across many fields and no checks on some roads. There was no hard border.  Around Kaliningrad. A different kind of country border.  It set a precedent.  The EU never ever always had fence borders.  The link you shared which I had already read details the EU told Poland it had to increase border posts from four to more than seven.    That's because at least three were not controlled.   

So a person could walk from one country to the other. Cycle or drive a car 

Just as it will be in Ireland today and in November.

That's my main point. There will be no border between the north and south of Ireland.   I give reasons why I think this.   Examples

I have in three years not heard one person say they think the EU will build a border    many remainers say "they might" and "I don't know" or "I can't make a guess even with lots of information " 

EU and many remainers say it won't be fair if a border does nt exist.  That's most bizarre.  Someone here claims it will be the only non controlled border in the world between non custom linked countries.    We have offered technology solutions.  The EU use Ireland as a sticking point and some remainers think it's such a valid point that brexit in its totality should not happen.

I fundamentally disagree.

We voted leave and we should leave.

Issues like the Irish border are easily solved.  Leave it alone.  Then look for better technology based solutions if abuse of the border is happening. 

 

[Rev]

49 minutes ago, Igorlegend11 said:

It was a commentary on how the likelihood of migrants going via Ireland into the UK will decrease after brexit.  The risk is there today. And will be substantially there after. If EU migrants now in November turn up in Liverpool they won't get advantages given to them as at today.  I predict those people would instead work in black economy.  I don't propose that they do for one minute.  I'm making a sensible prediction.

It would be best if when a migrant is living safely in the Irish part of the EU they remain there.   

After Brexit there will be no more NEW  EU migrants allowed to work here, unless we have a need and choose to allow some across and into jobs.

I know I'm being really thick here, so apologies for that.

I don't see why an EU migrant would enter now via the ROI instead of direct immigration, unless they decided that after a time in Ireland to take a chance on the UK, which is their right at this moment in time.

 Non Irish EU passengers also have to show their passport before boarding any ferry to the UK, so it's impossible for them to come to the country without being noted now, never mind after Brexit.

I'm not aware of how the post Brexit working visa requirements on EU citizens will work, but as you stated earlier they won't be allowed to work after October so you obviously are, can you point me in the direction of the necessary law?

 

[Igorlegend11]

13 minutes ago, reverendo de duivel said:

I know I'm being really thick here, so apologies for that.

I don't see why an EU migrant would enter now via the ROI instead of direct immigration, unless they decided that after a time in Ireland to take a chance on the UK, which is their right at this moment in time. The migrants in calais we don't allow in to UK ( the ones who try and break in to lorries etc ). What law stops us accepting them indint know.  Keeping open Irish border both now and after brexit does allow them a non document d route into the UK     someone earlier today provided a link to a news article showing that the Irish route into mainland UK is used currently.

 Non Irish EU passengers also have to show their passport before boarding any ferry to the UK, so it's impossible for them to come to the country without being noted now, never mind after Brexit.  Good information. Some remainers claim it's an open border and no documents are needed and to have restrictions would break NI peace ( someone earlier in this thread ) all I can say is keep it the same.  Whatever is in place remains

I'm not aware of how the post Brexit working visa requirements on EU citizens will work, but as you stated earlier they won't be allowed to work after October so you obviously are, can you point me in the direction of the necessary law? No. Suffice to say we are not leaving the EU to then handout working NI numbers to EU migrants.  There had been alongside the WA mention we would allow existing EU nationals present in UK to register and claim right to live/work here.  I'm no expert on the detail of deals that have not been agreeable anyway.    It's clear after brexit foreign workers can't just arrive in the UK and get the right to work here.

 

As an aside why don't you read all the links people have provided and all the points everyone has put.    We've debated endlessly the Irish border on here.  Noone in their right mind thinks a border will be built and manned.

Yet even us adults debate why/how unfair it will be.

Just accept there will never be a border.

Then my explaining the risk of route into the UK by a calais based migrant is the same after brexit as it is today will be better understood. I'm observing the status quo will remain.

 

Last question and comment from me in this thread . When people like yourself claim you are being thick I'm not entirely convinced you are bing honest.

Do you think a border being built is probable or unlikely?

And if you can get Hantsram to answer that simple question that would be fantastic too in your journey to realising the power of probability based on a number of knowns 

 

 

[ronnieronalde]

1 hour ago, Igorlegend11 said:

It was a commentary on how the likelihood of migrants going via Ireland into the UK will decrease after brexit.  The risk is there today. And will be substantially there after. If EU migrants now in November turn up in Liverpool they won't get advantages given to them as at today.  I predict those people would instead work in black economy.  I don't propose that they do for one minute.  I'm making a sensible prediction.

It would be best if when a migrant is living safely in the Irish part of the EU they remain there.   

After Brexit there will be no more NEW  EU migrants allowed to work here, unless we have a need and choose to allow some across and into jobs.

And that my friend is a very ducking sad state of affairs.

First of all any human being in the world should have a chance to better their lives if they've got the gumption to get off their arse and graft - or have a unique skill set. There really is no way we'd have developed so quickly and so culturally unless we'd opened our doors to foreigners. I get the argument that people think we're creaking at the seems but the truth is, those areas where we're creaking are simply poorly funded and if we invested more money on those areas and less money on tax breaks for the wealthy we wouldn't be in the shithole we're currently in.

Secondly, we do have a need. There are jobs available to our own citizens which they choose not to do because it's beneath them.

I might be wrong here pal but sometimes reading your post it looks as if you may have English as a second language, that's honestly not a criticism and I'm really sorry if it comes over like that, I'm not on about your general language skills which are spot on, I'm more looking at the type of phrases you use and the shape of your sentences.

Where are you from pal?

[Igorlegend11]

6 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

And that my friend is a very ducking sad state of affairs.  Thats kind of asking for a tiny densely populated island to have no border at all.  I'd ask why has the UK proved such an attractive place to live for so many people for so long ? 

First of all any human being in the world should have a chance to better their lives if they've got the gumption to get off their arse and graft - or have a unique skill set. There really is no way we'd have developed so quickly and so culturally unless we'd opened our doors to foreigners. I get the argument that people think we're creaking at the seems but the truth is, those areas where we're creaking are simply poorly funded and if we invested more money on those areas and less money on tax breaks for the wealthy we wouldn't be in the shithole we're currently in.

Secondly, we do have a need. There are jobs available to our own citizens which they choose not to do because it's beneath them.  Totally agree. It's quite conceivable following the 2005 Blair role in the EU was visionary in allowing East EU workers over into UK.  In 2006 we were short of labour. People didn't want to do certain jobs. Which kind of goes against the argument people should have chance to progress. We've ended up with UK born people declining jobs that only less wealthy East EU workers will perform.   Thats what happens with market forces and different wealth in the east EU countries.  It has also pushed down wages in the UK and allowed a self balancing wage control.  Wage inflation is biggest driver the government seeks to control 

I might be wrong here pal but sometimes reading your post it looks as if you may have English as a second language, that's honestly not a criticism and I'm really sorry if it comes over like that, I'm not on about your general language skills which are spot on, I'm more looking at the type of phrases you use and the shape of your sentences.

Where are you from pal? England born and bred 

 

 

[ronnieronalde]

I don't think anyone who is talking about a border across Ireland envisages a Berlin Wall or the type of border that is being built between India and Bangladesh @Igorlegend11. In fact I think I may be confused as to what you mean by a hard border and what's meant by a hard border in general.

So of course there will be no "total border across the length of Ireland" Jesus christ if there was it would be bang out of order. This isn't 2 warring countries we're talking about.

For me ANY controls or checks put in place between the North and the Republic would be a major step backwards. For me, one road crossing or 16 road crossings does constitute  hard border.

I also think the argument has got a bit one dimensional over this border issue and your reasoning is confusing me to the point that I'm questioning whether I've totally misunderstood the points you're making.

The ONLY question for me is are we as a country (or a Union) going to be better off out of the EU. So far ALL parties agree and all indicators point to a "no" answer.

It seems as if you think we can just leave and ignore anything the EU tries to do to make it more difficult for us. that we can just ignore the rules they've created for the rest of the member states, It seems as if you think the EU will just accept any changes we want to make.

If that was the case, why didn't we just say nowt, keep our heads down and stay by name only and just ignore all of the stupid rules the EU put in place in the first place. It seems that's what we're going to do if we crash out with a no deal.

"Yeah, I know that's your rules and I know that's what you want us to do but duck you and duck that, we're the UK, we'll do what we want"

Surely we've not just wasted 3 years and billions of pounds on something we didn't need to do?

 

 

[1of4]

16 hours ago, ronnieronalde said:

And that my friend is a very ducking sad state of affairs.

First of all any human being in the world should have a chance to better their lives if they've got the gumption to get off their arse and graft - or have a unique skill set. There really is no way we'd have developed so quickly and so culturally unless we'd opened our doors to foreigners. I get the argument that people think we're creaking at the seems but the truth is, those areas where we're creaking are simply poorly funded and if we invested more money on those areas and less money on tax breaks for the wealthy we wouldn't be in the shithole we're currently in.

Secondly, we do have a need. There are jobs available to our own citizens which they choose not to do because it's beneath them.

I might be wrong here pal but sometimes reading your post it looks as if you may have English as a second language, that's honestly not a criticism and I'm really sorry if it comes over like that, I'm not on about your general language skills which are spot on, I'm more looking at the type of phrases you use and the shape of your sentences.

Where are you from pal?

I noticed Igor, when asked where he came from, he answered England.

I was thinking he was using his real name and was posting from an office buried deep inside the Kremlin.

[Igorlegend11]

2 hours ago, ronnieronalde said:

I don't think anyone who is talking about a border across Ireland envisages a Berlin Wall or the type of border that is being built between India and Bangladesh @Igorlegend11. In fact I think I may be confused as to what you mean by a hard border and what's meant by a hard border in general.

So of course there will be no "total border across the length of Ireland" Jesus christ if there was it would be bang out of order. This isn't 2 warring countries we're talking about.   The "friendly" EU do want border checks on all roads.  That's 200 hundred.  If you're doing 10 roads that's 5%   and will divert traffic to other roads without a check. It's sadly for the EU either all or nothing with regard to a border.  The UK are fine without a border, as a compromise to allow trade to continue 

For me ANY controls or checks put in place between the North and the Republic would be a major step backwards. For me, one road crossing or 16 road crossings does constitute  hard border. To the Irish and border crossing is a major NO.  Any form of checks will be even more unwelcome and totally puts peace at risk.  It's been incredibly risky that the Irish have spoken in terms of a border.  

I also think the argument has got a bit one dimensional over this border issue and your reasoning is confusing me to the point that I'm questioning whether I've totally misunderstood the points you're making.   It's debated lots because remainers and the EU claim the issue is so bad we shouldn't leave the EU. For all his faults Boris sees clearly in that we will accept no border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland.  People quote issue after issue.  When the reality is.......there never ever will be a border built. Checks on 10 out of 200 road crossings would be stupid as it would merely divert traffic to non border controlled places.

The ONLY question for me is are we as a country (or a Union) going to be better off out of the EU. So far ALL parties agree and all indicators point to a "no" answer.   You will recall we were told we would suffer immediately after a vote to Leave. That never happened. Nobody can predict with any accuracy until the terms of leaving are known and until we have new trade deals struck.  NOTE the EU themselves won't talk trade until we have left.  Their choice once again...   New Zealand lost ability to export to us when we joined the EEC.  Their economy shrunk for two years. Then, it grew significantly into other trade deals and new export markets...after 8years it was ahead if anywhere it had expected to be such was their subsequent growth.  They had hardest "brexit "ever.   They could nt sell to UK as EU tariffs were so high 

It seems as if you think we can just leave and ignore anything the EU tries to do to make it more difficult for us. that we can just ignore the rules they've created for the rest of the member states, It seems as if you think the EU will just accept any changes we want to make.  If anyone in business, life or politics tries to lock me into a deal that is weighted in their favour it's time to end that relationship.  I don't know what the EU (the commissionaires and President ) will agree to.  I do know Germany will not allow no deal to be struck as they have a mature decent economy and they don't want to harm it. Brinkmanship works both ways.

If that was the case, why didn't we just say nowt, keep our heads down and stay by name only and just ignore all of the stupid rules the EU put in place in the first place. It seems that's what we're going to do if we crash out with a no deal.  We coukd never stay and be legally be bound to their political rules. If we leave with no deal we owe them very little.  No transition costs. We save billions by leaving in any case. Very little of the £39bn would be payable. For a struggling federal state they will be needing that £39bn.    Tony Blair set the departure in motion by giving away £7bn a year rebate Thatcher had negotiated in return for no reforms, no nothing.   The accounts of the EU always show hundreds of millions being wasted.  In 2014, the court found that €666m (£524m) from the EU fund that is given to countries to finance projects in underdeveloped areas, was "poor value for money". Poland, for example, built three airports, in Lodz, Rzeszow and Lublin, which have received more than €100m of EU funding, but which have not attracted enough customers to keep them in business.

 

"Yeah, I know that's your rules and I know that's what you want us to do but duck you and duck that, we're the UK, we'll do what we want". That's kind of how sovereign states work. We are not living in an EU federal state.

Surely we've not just wasted 3 years and billions of pounds on something we didn't need to do?  We entered talks and were told the EU were dictating what got talked about in what order. We complied. It did turn out to be done the wrong way round and has been thus far a waste of time.  Their was a framework to work on, the WA.   They insisted it was that or nothing. The UK parliament rejected the deal.   We now will leave on 31st October.   The date is set.  Even a no confidence vote in October achieves nothing. There is no other majority government able to step in.  And no time.  Law is the law.  The people voted to leave.  Parliament passed an act to leave.  Remainers, through the courts, insisted Parliament needed to ratify any deal.  That allowed EU to try and get a bad deal passed. That failed.  They never were going to offer the best deal with such a vocal amount of the UK population claiming and demandijg we still want to stay.  The EU keep publicly saying they want us to stay. They actually need us to stay. They need our consumers. They need to export to us.  They need to protect their economies.