The Politics Thread 2019

[ronnieronalde]

12 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

Absolute sense - and if everyone had those same ethics the world would be a lot better place. Sadly it seems that a large majority of people at the top have either got there through privilege and not hard work, or by selfishness and intend to remain selfish in order to stay there.

1) A lot of us work in companies where the CEO probably earns more in a year than we will earn in our entire working life. At which point you think - can it really be about the money for these people, or is it just about the power that it gives them?

As much as I slated 2) Mel Morris at the time for cosying up to Theresa May at the last election - as rich people go, he puts enough of it back into the community to be OK in my book (not just the club either - I know he has bought specialist equipment for the Royal Derby Hospital as well amongst other things)

 

1) I worked for Monster (the job board) as MD for Poland, a couple of my junior sales team were earning £300 a month and had children to bring up - this was in 2012. I couldn't get a pay rise authorised through HR but it broke my heart that such a modern international company could treat it's staff so poorly, so for 6 months I paid them each £300 a month out of my own pocket. duck that. 

The CEO took a bonus of £5.2 million dollars for taking the share price from $18 USD down to $5.50 then he made 400 people redundant. That's had such a profound effect on me. I can't ever be that kind of leader.

2) I've got to be careful here as it looks like I'm sucking up BUT I'll say again, the more I hear about your owner, the more I realise what a good bloke he is. If everybody did a little bit more, just a little bit, we'd all be in better shape.

It's why I'm delighted to see that super wealthy group of Americans ask to be taxed 1% more, sure it's only 1% and they can comfortably afford more, but 1% is 1% more than before.

[eddie]

1 hour ago, GboroRam said:

It has more merit to the idea than you think. No more John Smiths, and good honest brews. I'm in. 

It used to take me around 10 hours work over a month to brew and bottle 5 gallons, so it's definitely no cost-effective.

[McRainy]

1 hour ago, ronnieronalde said:

Does that make any sense at all?

It does, within the framework you are describing, and I can understand and respect the approach you are taking. 

I would prefer a cooperative and non-hierarchical approach of shared ownership, personally, making the employer/ employee relationship unnecessary.

This has been proven to work, even within the present market system. I think that is the way to build the sustainable society of the future, where profit and growth are no longer the primary drivers. 

[ronnieronalde]

33 minutes ago, McRainy said:

It does, within the framework you are describing, and I can understand and respect the approach you are taking. 

I would prefer a cooperative and non-hierarchical approach of shared ownership, personally, making the employer/ employee relationship unnecessary.

This has been proven to work, even within the present market system. I think that is the way to build the sustainable society of the future, where profit and growth are no longer the primary drivers. 

Also my preferred model and one I ran with for my first start up. It worked superbly, I''ve never had a team as committed and motivated, nor one as equal. 

I had one rule at the start of each year and it was the quickest "kick off" meeting ever. 5 minutes to let them know our targets weren't negotiable but how we got there was really fluid and up to them. Some (Most) of their ideas were superb and I wouldn't have come up with them in a million years.

Everyone from me down to the receptionist was on a profit share. It was the best 3 years of my professional life and I've been told theirs as well. I think the only person who wasn't delighted with it was my fiance who was doubling up as the FD ? 

Then came the 2007 crash.

I'll crack it again soon ? I just needed to find my cause.

 

**quick edit to say that even under a so-operative model there still does need to be a leader and a final decision maker, I think most people still look to someone to steer the ship even if everyone is at the same level.

[McRainy]

10 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

I'll crack it again soon ? I just needed to find my cause

Sounds like you had a great experience. Best of luck!

[cstand]

8 hours ago, StivePesley said:

And the award for this week's most pathetic and needless post goes to....drum roll

And the award for this weeks pathetic attempt  to deny free speech to normal people goes to........  a SJW what a surprise. Keep it quiet though thousands of taxpayers cash will be wasted on this but I am not allowed to tell anyone.

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, cstand said:

And the award for this weeks pathetic attempt  to deny free speech to normal people goes to........  a SJW what a surprise. Keep it quiet though thousands of taxpayers cash will be wasted on this but I am not allowed to tell anyone.

Sorry - not meaning to deny you anything - just using my free speech to highlight the pointlessness of your post in an otherwise interesting thread. Carry on - speak away. I have plenty of laughter left for WUMs

[maxjam]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/european-commission-president-ursula-von-der-leyen-juncker-eu-parliament-a8987841.html

The European parliament’s political groups have united to condemn the selection of the next European Commission president, branding the process an undemocratic stitch-up by national governments.

EU leaders chose Ursula von der Leyen as their pick to replace Jean-Claude Juncker as the leader of the European Union’s executive branch despite the fact she was not on the ballot paper as a candidate and has no manifesto.

The main reason why I personally voted to leave was to bring accountability closer to home.  As the saying goes, 'power corrupts, absolutely power corrupts absolutely' it will only get more insidious over time.

 

[McRainy]

The contempt for democracy and justice is staggering. See also the appointment of Christine Lagarde, a convicted fraudster, as head of the European Central Bank. 

She was found guilty by a court of law but not sentenced; normally the offence would carry a prison sentence. Most people expect that if they are caught with their hand in the till and convicted then there will be little chance of finding a job requiring a high level of trust or taking care of money. But Lagarde is offered the job of Head of the ECB.

Corruption and unaccountability in plain sight. Democracy is dying before our eyes, and yet people still defend it because 'trade deals'. 

[ronnieronalde]

46 minutes ago, McRainy said:

The contempt for democracy and justice is staggering. See also the appointment of Christine Lagarde, a convicted fraudster, as head of the European Central Bank. 

She was found guilty by a court of law but not sentenced; normally the offence would carry a prison sentence. Most people expect that if they are caught with their hand in the till and convicted then there will be little chance of finding a job requiring a high level of trust or taking care of money. But Lagarde is offered the job of Head of the ECB.

Corruption and unaccountability in plain sight. Democracy is dying before our eyes, and yet people still defend it because 'trade deals'. 

I've never been a huge fan of the EU, I did quite a bit of reading up on some of the projects they abandoned having spent millions (and millions and millions and millions) if you've got any sense about you, it makes you sit there and think "what the duck is going on, how can these buffoons be in charge of anything"

I voted remain because as far as I could see the UK was prospering and growing and I saw no sense in putting that in jeopardy by jumping into the unknown, but again as I've mentioned before once leave won, I'm not delighted but I'm fine to get behind that.

So for me, I'm not defending the EU because of trade deals, I'm angry at our own lot for screwing up negotiations and I'm more angry at them for lying and telling people they'd be "better off" - didn't they even put a figure of 2k per person on it? (I might have made that figure up so don't quote that part of it to "beat me up" over the rest of what I'm saying).

If you tell a poor person they'll be better off if they vote for something, they're going to vote for it. Of course they are.

I know I risk stick here and I'm NOT trying to blindly label the whole "leave" voters (I certainly don't think YOU'RE in this group McRainy) BUT again it's the lower educated and the poor who have been targeted with "emotional" messages. 

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/labour-mp-is-right-better-educated-people-more-likely-to-vote-remain

It's controversial and it looks nasty from my side - but please remember I AM ONE OF THOSE WITH LOWER EDUCATION = I AM STUPID BY MY OWN MEASURE OF STUPIDITY.

The thing that I'm most surprised about is that our own nation and people within in, STILL feel we can trust our own politicians to make things better than they were while we were in the EU, when everything points to the fact we're going to go backwards, short term and mid term with almost certainty and it will be the poor who suffer the most.

If I thought once we'd left things would suddenly(or even gradually) improve for the majority. I'd be shouting "get us out" from the rooftops.

Our own politicians have shown no signs at all that they're less corrupt or more trustworthy than their European counterparts. It's like it's all a big game to them. It's like watching and listening to the grumpy old men from the muppet show.

[Igorlegend11]

2 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

I've never been a huge fan of the EU, I did quite a bit of reading up on some of the projects they abandoned having spent millions (and millions and millions and millions) if you've got any sense about you, it makes you sit there and think "what the duck is going on, how can these buffoons be in charge of anything"

I voted remain because as far as I could see the UK was prospering and growing and I saw no sense in putting that in jeopardy by jumping into the unknown, but again as I've mentioned before once leave won, I'm not delighted but I'm fine to get behind that.

So for me, I'm not defending the EU because of trade deals, I'm angry at our own lot for screwing up negotiations and I'm more angry at them for lying and telling people they'd be "better off" - didn't they even put a figure of 2k per person on it? (I might have made that figure up so don't quote that part of it to "beat me up" over the rest of what I'm saying).

If you tell a poor person they'll be better off if they vote for something, they're going to vote for it. Of course they are.

I know I risk stick here and I'm NOT trying to blindly label the whole "leave" voters (I certainly don't think YOU'RE in this group McRainy) BUT again it's the lower educated and the poor who have been targeted with "emotional" messages. 

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/labour-mp-is-right-better-educated-people-more-likely-to-vote-remain

It's controversial and it looks nasty from my side - but please remember I AM ONE OF THOSE WITH LOWER EDUCATION = I AM STUPID BY MY OWN MEASURE OF STUPIDITY.

The thing that I'm most surprised about is that our own nation and people within in, STILL feel we can trust our own politicians to make things better than they were while we were in the EU, when everything points to the fact we're going to go backwards, short term and mid term with almost certainty and it will be the poor who suffer the most.

If I thought once we'd left things would suddenly(or even gradually) improve for the majority. I'd be shouting "get us out" from the rooftops.

Our own politicians have shown no signs at all that they're less corrupt or more trustworthy than their European counterparts. It's like it's all a big game to them. It's like watching and listening to the grumpy old men from the muppet show.

Well explained.

There are key things in history that stay in human psyche.

1) democracy.  We can vote out MP's.   EU leaders are unelected, certainly by a mass public vote.

2) Free trade. We joined to trade,trade and trade.    It became a much bigger EU project as was always going to be the case. A state.  We never joined for that reason.

3) brexit departure....EU were never going to make it easy.  We have nt even started trade talks yet.  They do hope we will stay. Until they see it's hard brexit or be reasonable they won't offer best deal

4) Irish border.  Noone wants one in reality.  EU will say "if Northern Ireland can do a trade deal with country XYZ and their inferior goods meander across the border that's so bad we need a physical border"  the EU have no will to use technology,they'd rather cause an impasse as they will get a better trade deal by being able to insist we have a hard border between Liverpool and Northern Ireland and that NI keeps to EU standards.

It's fanciful stuff.  We can leave and they can police bkrderbas they wish.

What's lost is this......all the east EU members do NOT have hard border checks.  Eg Lithuania and Russia.    

I've been there on business.  Russian ways and shall we say "imperfect" rules exist.    Lithuanians themselves are heavily aligned to Russia.  There is no hard border. 

5) military.  We were told by remained there would be no EU army.  As soon as we vote to leave they set about creating an EU army.    

I'm happy we never had a vote to leave in 1992 over Maastricht as we would have left then for sure.  Way better to increase trade and align standards over 25years.   

The easiest way to carry on is.....just as we were, with minor tweaks.   Then talk trade and see how many EU rules and standards we are prepared to mirror.  

BUT as an example ignore the validity or otherwise of clorinated chicken....IF we buy it from USA it can "walk" be driven into southern Ireland.  To stop that a while hard border needs creating.  Which can't physically happen.  BUT we can leave and we can "risk" goods moving from south to North 

Germany will NOT let trade collapse.  Germany happy if past EU commissioners could get a crap deal through the UK government.  They tried and failed.    A hard brexit needs calling.  When we are out....they and us are perfectly at liberty to say "let's talk nicely and properly whilst keeping a transition in place .....but accept we are "out and gone"

That's best way to remove notion we won't leave 

It's a fine line deciding how people voted.  Older generation remember history better. How last votes were denied as we were told we would never be part of a federal EU state.   

Older generation voted to leave in higher numbers.  Not because they are poor, but because they remember.   And they are imho greater custodians of rule of democracy.    

Nine commissionaires run the EU. All unelected.

 

 

[Igorlegend11]

16 hours ago, ronnieronalde said:

Also my preferred model and one I ran with for my first start up. It worked superbly, I''ve never had a team as committed and motivated, nor one as equal. 

I had one rule at the start of each year and it was the quickest "kick off" meeting ever. 5 minutes to let them know our targets weren't negotiable but how we got there was really fluid and up to them. Some (Most) of their ideas were superb and I wouldn't have come up with them in a million years.

Everyone from me down to the receptionist was on a profit share. It was the best 3 years of my professional life and I've been told theirs as well. I think the only person who wasn't delighted with it was my fiance who was doubling up as the FD ? 

Then came the 2007 crash.

I'll crack it again soon ? I just needed to find my cause.

 

**quick edit to say that even under a so-operative model there still does need to be a leader and a final decision maker, I think most people still look to someone to steer the ship even if everyone is at the same level.

It certainly does work best joint working.  You'd do well to study the Robert Owen cooperative movement.  It just proves too hard to do en masse.  

But certainly works well in isolation and a few companies.  

A fantastic read and eye opener is "Sapiens - a brief history of Humankind" inadvertently explains origins of capitalism from 1'000's of years ago.  We created fictional things.  Ltd company's..... they don't exist.  We allow them to in order to allow us to take risks.  And grow productivity worldwide.

Good luck with your next venture.

And tell Nigel it's been a while since he stood watching Mickleover Sports midweek games.  

[ronnieronalde]

3 minutes ago, Igorlegend11 said:

It certainly does work best joint working.  You'd do well to study the Robert Owen cooperative movement.  It just proves too hard to do en masse.  

But certainly works well in isolation and a few companies.  

A fantastic read and eye opener is "Sapiens - a brief history of Humankind" inadvertently explains origins of capitalism from 1'000's of years ago.  We created fictional things.  Ltd company's..... they don't exist.  We allow them to in order to allow us to take risks.  And grow productivity worldwide.

Good luck with your next venture.

And tell Nigel it's been a while since he stood watching Mickleover Sports midweek games.  

I wish I could pal, I wish I could.

I've not spoken to Nigel since the Burton v Hull 0-5 game and rarely get the chance to do so at all these days. If I see him I'll tell him, I know him and Simon (and probably Stephen as well) have a soft spot for Mickleover that won't ever die ?

I "sponsored" John McGrath in the program for a season or two while he was at Burton as a player so I keep my eye out as well ? Cracking little player and very decent bloke.

[eddie]

3 hours ago, McRainy said:

The contempt for democracy and justice is staggering. See also the appointment of Christine Lagarde, a convicted fraudster, as head of the European Central Bank. 

She was found guilty by a court of law but not sentenced; normally the offence would carry a prison sentence. Most people expect that if they are caught with their hand in the till and convicted then there will be little chance of finding a job requiring a high level of trust or taking care of money. But Lagarde is offered the job of Head of the ECB.

Corruption and unaccountability in plain sight. Democracy is dying before our eyes, and yet people still defend it because 'trade deals'. 

I bet you're looking forward to your splendid isolation. Perhaps you can write a book - '101 ways to cook dandelions'.

[McRainy]

26 minutes ago, eddie said:

I bet you're looking forward to your splendid isolation. Perhaps you can write a book - '101 ways to cook dandelions'.

You're just a pointless troll on this subject. 

[McRainy]

2 hours ago, ronnieronalde said:

If I thought once we'd left things would suddenly(or even gradually) improve for the majority. I'd be shouting "get us out" from the rooftops.

 Our own politicians have shown no signs at all that they're less corrupt or more trustworthy than their European counterparts. 

So the conclusion must be that the representative political system in its current form is no longer fit for purpose. The question is then, do the structures and institutions of the EU make progressive reform more or less likely? 

[GboroRam]

5 hours ago, maxjam said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/european-commission-president-ursula-von-der-leyen-juncker-eu-parliament-a8987841.html

The European parliament’s political groups have united to condemn the selection of the next European Commission president, branding the process an undemocratic stitch-up by national governments.

EU leaders chose Ursula von der Leyen as their pick to replace Jean-Claude Juncker as the leader of the European Union’s executive branch despite the fact she was not on the ballot paper as a candidate and has no manifesto.

The main reason why I personally voted to leave was to bring accountability closer to home.  As the saying goes, 'power corrupts, absolutely power corrupts absolutely' it will only get more insidious over time.

 

"Von der Leyen's nomination still requires approval from a majority in the European Parliament before she can take up her appointment in November."

[GboroRam]

6 minutes ago, McRainy said:

So the conclusion must be that the representative political system in its current form is no longer fit for purpose. The question is then, do the structures and institutions of the EU make progressive reform more or less likely? 

Is progressive reform going to happen in either the EU or the UK parliaments?

Which is most likely to offer safeguards for workers at the current moment in time?

[ronnieronalde]

1 minute ago, McRainy said:

So the conclusion must be that the representative political system in its current form is no longer fit for purpose. The question is then, do the structures and institutions of the EU make progressive reform more or less likely? 

I don't know and if I'm honest, despite posting regularly on this thread and making my own views pretty clear that I think we've made a huge mistake in invoking article 50 before we had any clue how to see this thing through.

I don't care anymore.  In, Out or shake it all about. Neither the EU or our own government (or opposition) give a rats arse about ordinary folk, they just want to be able to say they won. Ok, so you won, we're still all ducked. Well played.

i'm sitting here most days reading or hearing something that makes me sick to the pit of my stomach as to the direction we're heading in as a society.

I don't think it's just politics that's broken, I think it's society as well.

As for reform coming from within our own shores from our own politicians? I don't trust any of them and certainly neither of the 2 candidates who are about to become the leader of our "Great" country.

 

[McRainy]

5 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Is progressive reform going to happen in either the EU or the UK parliaments?

Which is most likely to offer safeguards for workers at the current moment in time?

Neither.

The greatest danger to safeguards for workers, however, is the shift in power to corporate sector, and the EU is constitutionally set up to enable and promote that. 

The only means we have had for gaining reforms hitherto have been through pressure on elected governments, who then legislate to limit the effects of corporate power. The EU sidesteps that entire process - you have no democratic access to the body which proposes legislation, but the banks and corporations do. 

We're seeing the effects of late capitalism as it inevitably devolves towards oligarchy. The only way to stop it is through mass, international grassroots resistance imo.