System

[Duracell]

35 minutes ago, RiddingsRam said:

I don't think after 2 games it's the time to start ripping up the blueprint and starting over , Frank's said from the start he's not set in one system or formation and elaborated this at the forum on Thursday. 

True, but we’re learning fast who’s struggling with the system as it is now.

Ledley was fine in that role in leasuirely friendlies but looks totally out of his depth in league games. Last night he went for the press but Leeds went through him before he even got there half the time, leaving a massive gap in front of the back 4. No surprise we have Keogh v.2015, like the last time we went kamikaze in a 4-3-3 with no proper CDM.

You never know, maybe the answers lie in the new players and we only have to take a couple out from the XI yesterday for it to work. What if Evans presses smarter and rotates with Bryson and Mount better? That alone would’ve made it a closer fight against Leeds.

What if Malone is better at judging when to attack? Does he know how to defend the back stick? Can Duane Holmes come in for Bryson or Mount and cover for Ledley when he gets the press wrong? Is Marriott better than Waghorn defending from the front? Will Jozefzoon and Thomas give the ball away less cheaply than Wilson or Laurence?

So many unanswered questions due to so many new players - and that’s just this formation.

You’re right, way too early to write off Frank’s version of 4-3-3. Playing an opposition like Leeds did expose some fundamental flaws with it as it is though.

[StringerBell]

Is a system the same thing as a formation or is there more to it?

[Duracell]

Just now, StringerBell said:

Is a system the same thing as a formation or is there more to it?

It makes you sound more cleverer when you’re pretending to know what you’re on about if you’re talking about formations. That’s why I use it anyway.

[BriggRam]

5 hours ago, Westcumbrianram said:

On the first one above you could even swap Wisdom for Keogh if needed.

Or just keep it as it is, and take Keogh out of all the other possible line ups also ?

[Jimbo Ram]

5 hours ago, Woodley Ram said:

            Carson

wisdom  keogh Davies malone

    Thorne. Huddlestone 

wilson   Mount.    Lawrence    

       Waghorn 

Do you really think Thorne is ready and performing at the required level to start????

[Richard246]

Is anyone ready and performing at the required level.

[EraniosSocks]

I watched the Tubes interview with Lamps yesterday, wonder if he’s given Carlo Anchelotti a call yet 

[RedSox]

9 hours ago, Westcumbrianram said:

                           Carson

Wisdom       Tomari   Davies    Malone

             Huddlestone         Mount

Jozefoon            Mount             Lawrence

                   Waghorn or Marriott

 

Or

 

                            Carson

                Keogh  Tomari  Davies

Bogle            Huddlestone             Malone

             Mount                  Bryson

                Marriott and Waghorn

Like your thinking on the second option. 

[cannable]

7 hours ago, StringerBell said:

Is a system the same thing as a formation or is there more to it?

A system is the intricacies within a formation. It’s the roles of the players with the formation. 

For example: Cardiff player 4-3-3 last season with Bamba in midfield, being asked to screen and win headers. The other two midfielders were asked to get stuck in. The defenders would defend deep and the wingers would break. 

Mac 1’s 4-3-3 had a high line and the DM screening the midfield and with the expectation or controlling the game. The other midfielders would link play and make runs. 

[DCFC1976]

The problem with Ledley is mobility and speed of which he has neither. Huddlestone isn’t quick but I would say he is physically stronger and has more composure and his range of passing is better. Evans who know, hopefully has all of the above?

[rammieib]

The DCM is key and should never be pressing. He has to constantly sit there.

In a perfect world, the best player for this is Kante. In our world, it's not Ledley, I don't think it's Huddlestone or Thorne (movement of a mountain) and we don't know what Evans is like.

[DCFC1976]

Perhaps we should try the 4-1-4-1 system, similar to what Leeds did yesterday?! Quite a few of their forward players interchanged positions and didn’t play up against a direct opponent which added to Derby’s confusion.

            

[Rampage]

8 hours ago, StringerBell said:

Is a system the same thing as a formation or is there more to it?

Both are  ethereal manifestations of a metaphysical, surreal, two dimensional superfluidic concept but there is a slight difference technically, StringerBell. Okay. 

[bigbadbob]

8 hours ago, StringerBell said:

Is a system the same thing as a formation or is there more to it?

I think a system involves pivots

[cannable]

54 minutes ago, rammieib said:

The DCM is key and should never be pressing. He has to constantly sit there.

In a perfect world, the best player for this is Kante. In our world, it's not Ledley, I don't think it's Huddlestone or Thorne (movement of a mountain) and we don't know what Evans is like.

Kante isn’t a sitter though, he’s a presser himself 

[rammieib]

12 hours ago, cannable said:

Kante isn’t a sitter though, he’s a presser himself 

He doesn't press outside of his DMC position.

[Alph]

It's ok him pressing if he knows what's around him. Press all he likes of the full backs aren't ahead of him. 

He was pushing up at the same time as Lowe! 

I'm nowhere near a fan of Johnson but he nailed the position a lot better. Surprising really because Ledley was ok there pre season. But then I guess we didn't have pretend Ronaldo's losing the ball every touch. We took far better care of it. 

[Alph]

The other thing Derby did better in pre season was the way we pressed. 

Nugent would set the press. Once he went then Lawrence and Wilson/Thomas would be awake for the pass. They'd press the pass and Mount Bryson and the full backs would be awake for that pass. All started from the front with Nugent. 

We've not managed to execute it as well in the league. We do it sometimes but there's a bit of a lack of unity in who goes. 

I just think the pace of everything has caught us out. We get pressed and bullied in ways that we didn't in pre season. 

I still think we'll get there. But this is that stage where you learn the hard way. You could sit Lowe and Ledley down with a video of Saturday and show them the cost of going together. You could show the wingers the cost of being selfish and greedy when the team is caught pushing up. Show Wisdom what happens when you have a picnic when the ball is in a crossing position..

At times we do what Frank wants and it looks promising. But careless play is far more frequent

 

 

[Edtheram]

I've always liked the 4-1-2-1-2. No need for panic though were 2 games in and had a weak back 4 out Saturday, Throw in Malone and Davies and give the team a couple of months to gel and that scoreline would look different im sure.

                          Carson

Wisdom    Tomori      Davies      Malone                                                 Bench - KR,RK,GE,CB,DH,FJ,MB

                      Huddlestone

Wilson                                       Lawrence

                         Mount

        Waghorn                Marriott

 

With this formation the front 5 attack and yet you still have 5 back defending dependent on how high the full backs are pushing up. By playing Lawrence and Wilson deeper we will draw out teams full backs and this would allow Huddlestone to do his 50 yard passes over the top as Waghorn and Marriott would have space to get in behind. When one striker is out wide the other is in the box and Mount is joining the attack along with Wilson and Lawrence. Also with Lawrence and Wilson dropping deeper it will give them more time and space to turn and run at teams and have more options when getting forward. I think this formation is a good alternative, and is easily changeable to a 4-3-3, 4-5-1 etc.

[Bigfella]

The discussions on systems and formations reminds me of a quote from Brian Clough, although not about systems per se I think it is pertinent "Players lose you games, not tactics. There's so much crap talked about tactics by people who barely know how to win at dominoes”