Sexydadbod Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 12 minutes ago, Leicester Ram said: Has he played for Watford? Yes he played in a couple of games before joining us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicester Ram Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 1 minute ago, McLovin said: Yes he played in a couple of games before joining us Oh, for ***** sake, CHUCK HIM ON THE WING! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady1993 Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 I think the what's important to understand in this discussion is why he isn't working out played in the centre of a three and do that we first need to understand what is required of that role. The 'lone' striker/centre forward/Pivot The main advantage of playing a 433 is it favors strength in midfield with the hope of establishing midfield superiority over an opponent. In order to do this you obviously sacrifice a little bit of presence up front. So in order to establish sustained pressure in your opponent's third of the pitch you have to be able to get your midfielders close to the box. As there is essentially two centrebacks for your one forward you need to have your midfielders looking to break beyond the defense to take pressure of your striker so that he can then find space to attack. In order for this to happen your centre forward needs to have strong link-up play in order to be able to let your midfield advance. They need to be comfortable dropping short and have the positional awareness to be able to provide the midfield with an easy option in getting the ball forward. They need to be able to maintain possession under pressure of the opponent's defence through a combination of physicality and technical ability in order to give time for the midfield to catch up. Good link-up ability and good positioning is the minimum requirement for this position Why Vydra is a good player yet cannot be the centre forward Honestly, right now I find Vydra the most frustrating player in the Derby squad. He's clearly got a high level of technical ability, his pace is frightening, he usually has a good work ethic and I do think that if he got a bit of confidence he'd be a good finisher. With that said at the current time he cannot play as the central forward and it's all down poor tactical awareness and positioning. Frequently he spins in behind down a blind alley when the midfield is crying out for him to drop short, get's caught in two minds of coming short or spinning or drifting wide when he should stay central. These problems are compounded by an inability to withstand the pressure of two centre backs. It's no coincidence that performances started to really pick when he was dropped for bent nor is it a coincidence that some of our poorer results/performances have come when he's played upfront and it certainly isn't a coincidence that a priority this window was getting in a striker. A key point as well is he has shown zero sign of improving in this regard. Vydra's good seasons have come when paired with someone with very good linkup ability and who is completely comfortable playing with his back to goal in Deeney. This allowed Vydra to float around Deeney to try to exploit space in front of and behind the opposition defence, using his pace and technique to hurt opponents but there was less requirement on him to linkup with the midfield or to be tactically disciplined. Why there might still be a future for Vydra at Derby A key observation to make is that we've had a good amount of success of using converted strikers in the inside forward positions, a position that is somewhere in between a winger and a striker, the likes of Russell, Ward and Wiemann have all been considered strikers in the past. Vydra has a very similar skillset to these three players, they all rely on their running ability and ability to exploit pace. There is also less emphasis here on tactical discipline and much more freedom in the role. A major plus point Vydra has over those three is I believe he has superior technical ability. Therefore I think there is a reasonable chance that if we have a centre forward with good linkup ability, someone Vydra can work off and float around, he might be very effective playing as the left inside forward. I also think there is a stronger chance he can be converted to this position than he can as the centre forward. My hope that now with Nugent coming to the club we will give this a shot because I think it'd be a shame if Vydra can't find a place at the club. TLDR; Stick him on the left Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 1 hour ago, brady1993 said: I think the what's important to understand in this discussion is why he isn't working out played in the centre of a three and do that we first need to understand what is required of that role. The 'lone' striker/centre forward/Pivot The main advantage of playing a 433 is it favors strength in midfield with the hope of establishing midfield superiority over an opponent. In order to do this you obviously sacrifice a little bit of presence up front. So in order to establish sustained pressure in your opponent's third of the pitch you have to be able to get your midfielders close to the box. As there is essentially two centrebacks for your one forward you need to have your midfielders looking to break beyond the defense to take pressure of your striker so that he can then find space to attack. In order for this to happen your centre forward needs to have strong link-up play in order to be able to let your midfield advance. They need to be comfortable dropping short and have the positional awareness to be able to provide the midfield with an easy option in getting the ball forward. They need to be able to maintain possession under pressure of the opponent's defence through a combination of physicality and technical ability in order to give time for the midfield to catch up. Good link-up ability and good positioning is the minimum requirement for this position Why Vydra is a good player yet cannot be the centre forward Honestly, right now I find Vydra the most frustrating player in the Derby squad. He's clearly got a high level of technical ability, his pace is frightening, he usually has a good work ethic and I do think that if he got a bit of confidence he'd be a good finisher. With that said at the current time he cannot play as the central forward and it's all down poor tactical awareness and positioning. Frequently he spins in behind down a blind alley when the midfield is crying out for him to drop short, get's caught in two minds of coming short or spinning or drifting wide when he should stay central. These problems are compounded by an inability to withstand the pressure of two centre backs. It's no coincidence that performances started to really pick when he was dropped for bent nor is it a coincidence that some of our poorer results/performances have come when he's played upfront and it certainly isn't a coincidence that a priority this window was getting in a striker. A key point as well is he has shown zero sign of improving in this regard. Vydra's good seasons have come when paired with someone with very good linkup ability and who is completely comfortable playing with his back to goal in Deeney. This allowed Vydra to float around Deeney to try to exploit space in front of and behind the opposition defence, using his pace and technique to hurt opponents but there was less requirement on him to linkup with the midfield or to be tactically disciplined. Why there might still be a future for Vydra at Derby A key observation to make is that we've had a good amount of success of using converted strikers in the inside forward positions, a position that is somewhere in between a winger and a striker, the likes of Russell, Ward and Wiemann have all been considered strikers in the past. Vydra has a very similar skillset to these three players, they all rely on their running ability and ability to exploit pace. There is also less emphasis here on tactical discipline and much more freedom in the role. A major plus point Vydra has over those three is I believe he has superior technical ability. Therefore I think there is a reasonable chance that if we have a centre forward with good linkup ability, someone Vydra can work off and float around, he might be very effective playing as the left inside forward. I also think there is a stronger chance he can be converted to this position than he can as the centre forward. My hope that now with Nugent coming to the club we will give this a shot because I think it'd be a shame if Vydra can't find a place at the club. TLDR; Stick him on the left Spot on and interesting post Brady, thoroughly agree. I also think when he plays in the centre it shows that our advanced midfield isn't always quite as advanced as maybe it should be. Vydra isn't dropping deep often enough to be a good link true. but I'd add that Hughes - Butterfield are holding back in a way that 13/14 Bryson - Hendrick didn't. That 13/14 season was a pretty text book 433. Maybe this time round I wonder if we can improve on it with players who have both pace and technical ability and as you say Vydra could be there on the left given a chance but will we try it with Russell, Weiman and Camara all after the same position ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady1993 Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 1 hour ago, jono said: I also think when he plays in the centre it shows that our advanced midfield isn't always quite as advanced as maybe it should be. Vydra isn't dropping deep often enough to be a good link true. but I'd add that Hughes - Butterfield are holding back in a way that 13/14 Bryson - Hendrick didn't. I think there is three big reasons and one lesser reason contributing to our midfield not being as advanced; I alluded to this point in my previous post. Without a player with good link-up play up front, the midfield can't gamble as much on making runs because there isn't a high enough chance that the ball will come back to them. Also there isn't that easy short option to work off if they bring the ball forward. The second reason is because we have been playing Johnson as the holding midfielder the other two have to drop deeper to help instigate the play because Johnson isn't very capable of doing it. Therefore if they are having to drop deep to start play they can't be looking to exploit pockets of space in the middle of the park or advance parts of the park. With someone like Thorne (and hopefully De Sart) they can take up attacking positions because they can rely on the DM finding them. Because of 1. and 2. McClaren has taken the tactical decision to not have to midfield forraying forward as much and has deliberately chose the two midfielders most comfortable in picking the ball of the back 4 and most capable of threading passes. Somewhat related to 3. but Hughes and Butterfield are very different midfielders from what Hendrick and Bryson, and are far less likely to drive beyond the backline. Perhaps McClaren no longer rates Bryson enough to do this and this could by why we are looking at options in the market (i.e. Lansbury) I think the fact our first two signings this January have been a playmaking DM and a new striker suggests to me McClaren is thinking along the same lines as the major problems with the team right now being 1. and 2.. Personally I think this is why we are currently a little ineffectual going forward. 1 hour ago, jono said: That 13/14 season was a pretty text book 433. Your absolutely right and it was that way for most of 14/15 too. We had a tactical cohesion and balance that I think we have failed to replicate since. 1 hour ago, jono said: Vydra could be there on the left given a chance but will we try it with Russell, Weiman and Camara all after the same position ? I suspect we might, Weimann seems firmly out of favor and Russell is significantly better on the right, Camara did well against West Brom but I think the jury is still out on him and he might ultimately be the wrong type of player for that position. Interestingly McClaren did bring sub Vydra on the left against WBA which could well be a sign of his intentions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 @brady1993 we are on pretty much the same wavelength but I had reservations about our Martin + Hendrick Bryson runners. It worked 50% of the time but some teams twigged it too easily and shut us down. Some of this was due to Martins lack of zip (even though I admire his wiles in other areas ) Hendrick would have a 1 good game in every two or three. When he was on a role he was unstoppable. But i much prefer our current choices and feel we have more room to grow and we have some "added features" to boot. in all honesty I am loving it at the moment because there are puzzles with solutions that hopefully Mac can work out and when/ if he does we will be a better team. It's going to be enjoyable watching it all come together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady1993 Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 On 13/01/2017 at 18:58, jono said: @brady1993 we are on pretty much the same wavelength but I had reservations about our Martin + Hendrick Bryson runners. It worked 50% of the time but some teams twigged it too easily and shut us down. Some of this was due to Martins lack of zip (even though I admire his wiles in other areas ) Hendrick would have a 1 good game in every two or three. When he was on a role he was unstoppable. But i much prefer our current choices and feel we have more room to grow and we have some "added features" to boot. in all honesty I am loving it at the moment because there are puzzles with solutions that hopefully Mac can work out and when/ if he does we will be a better team. It's going to be enjoyable watching it all come together I really don't think it was as easy as you say to shut us down when we had a full strength team hence why stormed up the league to 3rd in 13/14 and we were 2nd in 14/15 until injuries derailed us. It was only ever really Middlesbrough who could consistently 'do a job' on us and they were comparable side in quality to us anyway. I actually think if the 13/14 Derby side was to play the current Derby side, the current Derby side would get battered. I would love if we could rewind time to 2015 because we really didn't need many signings to take us on another level; sign ince, sign a better cb than buxton, sign cover for Thorne, sign cover for Martin and sign a good LW and I think we go up as champions in 15/16 under McClaren. Right now our squad is a bit of a mess and lacks tactical cohesion due to complete mismanagement in the previous three transfer windows. McClaren seems to have spotted the problems in the squad and is going about fixing it but it will take quite a bit of time, probably taking until next season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Fair points Brady but I remember some games where average sides caused us no end of trouble by just sticking on Martin and keeping two tight banks of 4. Millwall springs to mind and there were others too. You are right in terms of the balance though, on song it was a competitive well formed, balanced unit. I think this time round we have more potential and more variety and options to improve. The 13/14 side, less injuries, had peaked. It's best was its best, and we saw it in a number of games but it wasn't going to get any better. The current crop does need balancing you are absolutely right but I think there is some material there that could make a better side than 13/14 if it comes together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady1993 Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 10 minutes ago, jono said: Fair points Brady but I remember some games where average sides caused us no end of trouble by just sticking on Martin and keeping two tight banks of 4. Millwall springs to mind and there were others too. You are right in terms of the balance though, on song it was a competitive well formed, balanced unit. Sure I remember that too but I think too points you (and plenty of others) are overlooking with games such as those are that if an opposition just decides that they want to defend a point from the off it's very difficult to break them down regardless of system and sometimes your team just has an off day where it doesn't work. If we were tactically exploitable we'd have never been able to be as successful as we were. 14 minutes ago, jono said: I think this time round we have more potential and more variety and options to improve. The 13/14 side, less injuries, had peaked. It's best was its best, and we saw it in a number of games but it wasn't going to get any better. I have to disagree in and around the playoffs is the best the current squad (as of right of now, obviously the window can change things) can hope to achieve whereas the squad McClaren left was more than capable of challenging for automatics. The only area we've gone forward in is Defence. Your right to an extent that 13/14 side had peaked but we just needed to improve a player here or there to keep us going upwards. By bringing in the likes of Thorne and Ince we were building a better side whilst maintaining the tactical cohesion of the squad. With all that said I don't think we are too far away from mounting a serious challenge it's just might take this window and the next to get there.Going forward to mount a title challenge/give a good account ourselves in the prem next year we need : a striker capable of very good link-up play (we have one on the books in Martin and hopefully Nugent will do a job in this regard) A LW comparable in quality to Ince A DM who is both tactically disciplined and can act as playmaker e.g. Thorne. Hopefully De Sart will do a job for that until hopefully Thorne is fit and firing A RB who is more energetic than Baird and is better defensively than Christie A fit Forsyth A CM who can break beyond the forward line e.g. 13/14 Bryson (could still be Bryson in this regard) We also need to shift a lot of the players on who are currently struggling to make an impact to streamline the squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampage Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 What is the difference between Vydra and Hydra? Hydra gets more headed goals per season. This is a Rampage original joke and he would like to challenge others to contribute with jokes of the same genre where a player's name is compared with something that has only one letter replaced. No need to be a Rams player. What is the difference between a Russell and a Bussell? I do not know but does my ass look big in this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curb Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Rampage said: What is the difference between Vydra and Hydra? Hydra gets more headed goals per season. This is a Rampage original joke and he would like to challenge others to contribute with jokes of the same genre where a player's name is compared with something that has only one letter replaced. No need to be a Rams player. What is the difference between a Russell and a Bussell? I do not know but does my ass look big in this? are you gonna pass that joint round, mate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammieib Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Vydra cannot play left wing. He doesn't have a single bit of defensive nous about him and I still believe he is a lazy defensive player - the opposition run off him. If he is going to go on the pitch it has to be up front but we have Nugent and Bent down who will play that role now. Hopefully Nugent will bring others into play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Half Fan Half Biscuit Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 What's the difference between Hector and Vector? Vauxhall. What's the difference between Nugent and Pungent? Oh no sorry that stinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampage Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 31 minutes ago, curb said: are you gonna pass that joint round, mate? Curb your enthusiasm, all in good time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampage Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 25 minutes ago, Hadabelly said: What's the difference between Hector and Vector? Vauxhall. What's the difference between Nugent and Pungent? Oh no sorry that stinks. Hadabelly laugh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampage Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 What is the difference between Ince and Once? Ince scores more often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 What's the difference between baird and bird? The latter you can actually look forward to seeing occasionally on a Saturday afternoon. (I'll get me coat..........) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Whats the difference between goofy and carson? carson wears gloves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve How Hard? Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 What's the difference between Grant and Gran? Lee would get pretty Stoked if you sat on his knee and gave him a big hug and a kiss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinder Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 16 hours ago, HantsRam said: What's the difference between baird and bird? B4? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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