Russell and Butterfield need replacing?

[BramcoteRam84]

Agree we're nitpicking if butters and Russell are our weakest links, but the squads are so strong in the championship now, we always need to look to improve. 

[europia]

Has Butterfield ever really lived up to his transfer fee? Johnny Russell is Johnny Russell... he's been at Derby long enough for everyone to understand his limitations. 

[Mr Tibbs]

2 minutes ago, europia said:

Has Butterfield ever really lived up to his transfer fee? Johnny Russell is Johnny Russell... he's been at Derby long enough for everyone to understand his limitations. 

He was pretty good in a stuttering team last year, 8 league goals? None of them were scrappy either. Not sure what's going on this year, he's a very tidy player but is lacking that edge he had last season. Happy to slot in centre mid and just play easy passes for 90 minutes along side Hughes. Huddersfield had our pants down fee wise, that's not the players fault.

I like Russell but how many times does he need to under perform? Hauled off at HT today, shouldn't have started IMO after the Wigan game. Goals and assists have dried up, in a spell where we've been 10 unbeaten too. Not a good sign. I don't reckon much to Weimann or Camara so I don't really know what to say, Macca see's them all week and if we are interested in Sako I think that tells you what the manager thinks of our options. 

[Leicester Ram]

On 18 December 2016 at 23:24, Leicester Ram said:

I do a really good post about Russell every transfer window when he's linked with another club and they always gets like 10 likes or something, because ipI just point out he's fine and there's no guarantee we'll get a better player in etc etc

But I can't be arse this window so

Grass isn't always greener, be careful what you wish for, Nick Blackman, you only don't like Russell because idiots love him bla bla bla

Go on, give me 10 likes

 

On 22 July 2016 at 09:47, Leicester Ram said:

Russell wouldn't be so underrated by some if he wasn't so overrated by some.

He's the sort of player that's really popular with your mates kids and that bloke who goes on about players that run around a lot when he's not moaning that everyone who plays for England is an overpaid puff who isn't fit to wear the shirt.

And that makes him unpopular with the cynics who like to be contradictory to the mass opinion as often as possible.

In reality he's just a top end Championship winger who's popular with teammates and fans. Blows hot and cold like all wingers at this level do, but ultimately we'd only replace him with a similar winger that people would moan about if he left.

Keep him, unless it's silly money.

 

On 28 August 2016 at 12:27, Leicester Ram said:

Why has he played in a Derby team that's made the play-off's twice in the last three years then? 

People get massively hung up on players being top 6 or mid-table quality, when in reality you only need a few standout players and a manager with a cohesive system to be successful in the championship.

The whole 'he's got no end product' argument is also pointless. Yeah, he hasn't got a great end product, that's why he's playing in the Championship! We're a championship team, we're going to struggle to find a winger with a regular end product. Theres probably 10 players at most in this league you could argue have consistent end product, if that.

So many teams have gone up with players you wouldn't consider 'top 6 quality'. Most of Bournemouth's team wasn't "top 6 quality", teams like Norwich and Southampton went up with players they'd bought while they were in League One who had nowhere near the pedigree of Russell.

I understand why people want to try something different after a 3/4 seasons of the same players not getting us up, but don't expect dramatic results.

Here are my aforementioned amazing Johnny Russell posts, they are as relevant now as they were when they were posted. 

[Gaspode]

Mac says we're likely to appeal Butters red card - though he didn't say whether they'd be asking for a longer ban....

[DRBee]

On 01/01/2017 at 15:49, Warren Hobhead said:

The fella said Butters couldn't find a pass, kept giving it away. My eyes saw differently. Stats back that up. He made more forward passes than Hughes, again. He was better than Hughes (marginally) again. Yet it's he who must be castigated. Again. It's boring.

Hughes was not mentioned by me in the post you quote - still I suppose you do this because you can't answer the original point that pass completion stats do not tell you everything and Butterfield holds on to the ball too too long, appears not to see other players  etc.  He won't make it as a top player I am afraid. It ain't scapegoating , just a realistic judgement.

[brady1993]

2 hours ago, Mr Tibbs said:

He was pretty good in a stuttering team last year, 8 league goals? None of them were scrappy either. Not sure what's going on this year, he's a very tidy player but is lacking that edge he had last season. Happy to slot in centre mid and just play easy passes for 90 minutes along side Hughes. Huddersfield had our pants down fee wise, that's not the players fault.

I like Russell but how many times does he need to under perform? Hauled off at HT today, shouldn't have started IMO after the Wigan game. Goals and assists have dried up, in a spell where we've been 10 unbeaten too. Not a good sign. I don't reckon much to Weimann or Camara so I don't really know what to say, Macca see's them all week and if we are interested in Sako I think that tells you what the manager thinks of our options. 

I strongly suspect the reason why Russell has been starting so much despite his indifferent form (I think he's been ok for the most without being particularly good either, if that makes sense?) is simply down McClaren not rating his other attacking options very highly. Like you point out with Sako, I don't think it's a coincidence we are looking at bringing in another wide player.

[Seth's left foot]

The team definitely needs an injection of quality, today is another example of us losing a big game. We are relying on Ince to create a piece of magic to unlock teams too often, I've always liked Russell and Bryson as they give the team tempo but it's now time to freshen things up.

Lansbury will go to Watford because they play with the big boys, a leader in the middle is required though plus another option upfront.

[DEL]

Just now, Seth's left foot said:

The team definitely needs an injection of quality, today is another example of us losing a big game. We are relying on Ince to create a piece of magic to unlock teams too often, I've always liked Russell and Bryson as they give the team tempo but it's now time to freshen things up.

Lansbury will go to Watford because they play with the big boys, a leader in the middle is required though plus another option upfront.

But the Watford manager might be sacked and new one might don't want Lansbury? 

[Seth's left foot]

2 minutes ago, Derby_EnglandLoyal said:

But the Watford manager might be sacked and new one might don't want Lansbury? 

Does the manager even deal with transfers there? A player on the cheap is still an attractive option to them, Sky have reported that they will bid for him.

He won't come to us, need to look at plan B now that it's gone public.

[Mick Brolly]

We all know that Russell does a lot of huffing and puffing up and Down the wing but lately more often than not the ball ends up with the opposition or in the crowd ,he's lost his edge but no one else seems to do any better when given a chance.Vydra is starting to look over priced and anya looks injury prone SM would probably not have signed either off them , starting eleven needs some new faces and one old face ,I'm sure Stevie knows what we need and won't disappoint in the January window???

[PodgeyRam]

Problem today wasn't Russell or Bryson.

Russell created all of our best opportunities in the first half today. He took a couple of whacks and was limping at half time. Even then he was still contributing defensively and offensively.  His replacement, Weimann was anonymous.

Bryson kept trying to insert some tempo and pace into our play, but Butterfield's control of the ball killed all of our momentum. Consistently holding on to it for 5 seconds too long and dithering, getting caught in possession. At least Bryson and Russell were actively trying to make something happen.

If we are going to continue playing Butterfield we really need a proper target man (a la Martin) to give us the option to bypass him. We are very one dimensional at the moment.

[DerbyMark]

In regard to Johnny, he's struggled a bit this season let's be honest. What he does give the team is an ability to track and tackle back defensively which is probly why Macca's persisted with him.

Butterfield ain't really pulled any tree's up since his move here ( apart from one memorable performance at Hull ) although I did think he was unlucky to get a straight red today...the over reaction of the Norwich players got him sent off.

Maybe time to freshen it up in these positions, provided we can bring in better quality. Not sure that cheating red dog Lansbury's the answer though...

[RoyMac5]

15 minutes ago, PodgeyRam said:

Problem today wasn't Russell or Bryson.

Russell created all of our best opportunities in the first half today. He took a couple of whacks and was limping at half time. Even then he was still contributing defensively and offensively.  His replacement, Weimann was anonymous.

Bryson kept trying to insert some tempo and pace into our play, but Butterfield's control of the ball killed all of our momentum. Consistently holding on to it for 5 seconds too long and dithering, getting caught in possession. At least Bryson and Russell were actively trying to make something happen.

If we are going to continue playing Butterfield we really need a proper target man (a la Martin) to give us the option to bypass him. We are very one dimensional at the moment.

Would get rid of Butterfield in a heartbeat, he really does flatter to deceive.

[Warren Hobhead]

1 hour ago, DRBee said:

Hughes was not mentioned by me in the post you quote - still I suppose you do this because you can't answer the original point that pass completion stats do not tell you everything and Butterfield holds on to the ball too too long, appears not to see other players  etc.  He won't make it as a top player I am afraid. It ain't scapegoating , just a realistic judgement.

I think Butterfield lacked urgency again today, it's something I've posted many times. I think he's also forgotten how to shoot, When he plays with instinct, ups the tempo and gets in and around the box he's a top, top player at this level as shown previously. 

 

Maybe he needs this rest? But then, maybe he won't get back in? It seems many would be delighted with that. 

 

I'm having a rest myself too, from this forum. It's unbelievably negative. 

 

Before I go, I'll say as someone who actually went to CR today, we were crap. Barring Carson and perhaps Anya firsy half we were terrible, to a man. We looked slow, everything was laborious and once Butterfield walked it was a matter of how many we'd concede. I still - having now seen the replay - feel he was harshly sent off. I'd appeal that one. 

 

Norwich looked a good team once in front, but teams who play quicker football will cause them problems. 

 

I'd expect a few players shipping out this month, if we can find suitors. I'd expect Martin or AN Other striker brought in. And some pace or players who play on the edge. 

 

But that's me suspended from now on. I might return. But seeing some of the vitriol on here aimed at certain players earlier in the season (Ince and Johnson mainly) really angered me. I struggled on. We've just been on a record breaking run of sorts, really pulled ourselves up the table and still after one effin defeat the vitriol towards players returns. I'm amazed our moderators don't act upon it. Pretty sure players or their family will read the forum. But then I suppose "they don't have to read it". No, and neither do I. 

 

COYR and Happy New Year!

[RoyMac5]

10 minutes ago, Warren Hobhead said:

I think Butterfield lacked urgency again today, it's something I've posted many times. I think he's also forgotten how to shoot, When he plays with instinct, ups the tempo and gets in and around the box he's a top, top player at this level as shown previously. ...

But that's me suspended from now on. I might return. But seeing some of the vitriol on here aimed at certain players earlier in the season (Ince and Johnson mainly) really angered me. I struggled on. We've just been on a record breaking run of sorts, really pulled ourselves up the table and still after one effin defeat the vitriol towards players returns. I'm amazed our moderators don't act upon it. Pretty sure players or their family will read the forum. But then I suppose "they don't have to read it". No, and neither do I. 

Get a grip! Fans show passion the same as players.

Not at all sure Butterfield is a top, top player - he's not quick enough of thought for a start. We all have favourites and we all think we know better.

Bye.

[Mick Brolly]

12 minutes ago, Warren Hobhead said:

I think Butterfield lacked urgency again today, it's something I've posted many times. I think he's also forgotten how to shoot, When he plays with instinct, ups the tempo and gets in and around the box he's a top, top player at this level as shown previously. 

 

Maybe he needs this rest? But then, maybe he won't get back in? It seems many would be delighted with that. 

 

I'm having a rest myself too, from this forum. It's unbelievably negative. 

 

Before I go, I'll say as someone who actually went to CR today, we were crap. Barring Carson and perhaps Anya firsy half we were terrible, to a man. We looked slow, everything was laborious and once Butterfield walked it was a matter of how many we'd concede. I still - having now seen the replay - feel he was harshly sent off. I'd appeal that one. 

 

Norwich looked a good team once in front, but teams who play quicker football will cause them problems. 

 

I'd expect a few players shipping out this month, if we can find suitors. I'd expect Martin or AN Other striker brought in. And some pace or players who play on the edge. 

 

But that's me suspended from now on. I might return. But seeing some of the vitriol on here aimed at certain players earlier in the season (Ince and Johnson mainly) really angered me. I struggled on. We've just been on a record breaking run of sorts, really pulled ourselves up the table and still after one effin defeat the vitriol towards players returns. I'm amazed our moderators don't act upon it. Pretty sure players or their family will read the forum. But then I suppose "they don't have to read it". No, and neither do I. 

 

COYR and Happy New Year!

Ohhhh get you 

[RoyMac5]

2 minutes ago, Mick Brolly said:

Ohhhh get you 

Have run out of likes - a long time ago, more than 50 needed Mods! - have a like!  

[Mick Brolly]

3 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Have run out of likes - a long time ago, more than 50 needed Mods! - have a like!  

Have one back ?

[Stedcfc]

I think both players are simply out of form but yet the players on the bench such as Bryson and Weimann aren't really offering any improvement. Ideally both would drop to the bench for 2/3 games and come back refreshed.

The players we should be looking to "get rid of" are those on the bench. We should be looking to get some money for Weimann or Camara before we sell Russell and we are too short in midfield to even consider selling Butterfield.