Russell and Butterfield need replacing?

[Alph]

44 minutes ago, RamNut said:

92% of the game's most boring negative and unimaginative passes 

True yesterday. But the other 8% was everyone else and their boring passes.

But over the season he's done very very similar to Hughes. So what's said of Hughes can't be too far from what's said about Butters. 

[Mafiabob]

We really are all spoilt brats aren't we..... 

 

[Mafiabob]

45 minutes ago, Harrowram said:

Russel missed a good chance yesterday set up by Anya. Butter field was signed as a goal scoring midfielder but fails to hit the target. Getting a striker and right back are important but McClaren must consider these 2 positions too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Butterfield was signed as a player for Derby County FC as a midfielder 

[Ambitious]

Butterfield hasn't been at it this season. He's clearly a very good player, but it's not working for him at the moment. Bryson, too, hasn't been at his best for a while now either. 

Russell has always been a player that plays in patches. He goes through weeks/months doing little then will suddenly hit form. 

I won't argue that these are fundamentally good players, who have done well at this level, but these are also positions we can look at improving. 

The striker situation is the one that worries me most, however. 

[Bris Vegas]

Midfield is unbalanced. Hughes and Butterfield play the same role. We need a more attack-minded midfielder to replace one of them (preferably Butters though I do think he is very a capable player).

Russell's biggest problem is he is left footed playing on the left hand side. He would be far better player on the right, giving him more licence to cut in and I'm convinced he'd be a bigger goal threat there. However, Ince is the better player and in great form, therefore it would be nonensical to remove him from that role.

Martin coming back would solve the CF position. Bent has done OK admittedly of late, but it's clear he doesn't fit the system and there is definite room for improvement in this area.

Fullbacks are another area to improve. But in Lowe, Forsyth, Baird, Christie and Anya, even with the incredible bad luck in injuries we've still managed to get by pretty well so that's an area to look at in the summer.

If the options are out there this January, I'd go for a LW and AM as priorities. If not, signing anybody else would be pretty stupid unless they can oust Carson, our CBs, Ince or Hughes from the XI (very unlikely).

 

 

[Theramfan2010]

Butts and Russel miles off it 

[Theramfan2010]

Pearce keogh and Carson only ones focussed in the game. 

[Carl Sagan]

5 hours ago, Alpha said:

A few weeks ago we were debating Hughes. 

Another well thought out post, but spoilt by this bonkers last line. No we weren't!

As for Butterfield and Russell, they're not scoring the goals they should be and for that reason their position in the starting lineup can be questioned, but regarding the ridiculous first post, have we not forgotten all the possible alternatives already in the squad? McClaren has kept these two in so as not to change a winning team, but has now said we need to freshen up. Butterfield is safe because of Hughes' suspension and we're not going to swap two midfielders at once if we can help it. Johnny may be safe because Bent's not scoring either.

In the bigger picture, existing cover for Butterfield is Bryson and Elsnik and potentially Hanson or Guy and Thorne when fit. Russell's position is vulnerable to Camara, Weimann, Anya and Blackman (and Elsnik again) so I really don't think we need to buy to bloat the squad further. Unless perhaps we sell to near promotion certainties Brighton whose interest seems genuine. Perhaps their recruitment team knows a little more than some of the scapegoat hunters on here?

[EnigmaRam]

Russell hasn't been on it for the last couple of games. Missed some guilt edge chances that should of at least hit the target. Maybe the speculation has affected him somewhat. I wouldn't want him to leave but I do think he could be improved on as a first choice LW.

Butters is a good technical footballer that does a lot without really doing very much. Some games he's been really good but not consistently enough. We know Will can't shoot so someone needs to be in there that can get a few goals from midfield and Butters hasn't been delivering. Again I wouldn't want him to leave but could also be improved upon for something different.

[Rampage]

3 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said:

Another well thought out post, but spoilt by this bonkers last line. No we weren't!

As for Butterfield and Russell, they're not scoring the goals they should be and for that reason their position in the starting lineup can be questioned, but regarding the ridiculous first post, have we not forgotten all the possible alternatives already in the squad? McClaren has kept these two in so as not to change a winning team, but has now said we need to freshen up. Butterfield is safe because of Hughes' suspension and we're not going to swap two midfielders at once if we can help it. Johnny may be safe because Bent's not scoring either.

In the bigger picture, existing cover for Butterfield is Bryson and Elsnik and potentially Hanson or Guy and Thorne when fit. Russell's position is vulnerable to Camara, Weimann, Anya and Blackman (and Elsnik again) so I really don't think we need to buy to bloat the squad further. Unless perhaps we sell to near promotion certainties Brighton whose interest seems genuine. Perhaps their recruitment team knows a little more than some of the scapegoat hunters on here?

I pretty much always agree with your posts Carl. All I can say is that you must be good, perhaps too good.

Happy new Year Carl. I have really enjoyed your contribution to the best Forum west of the Pecos.COYR

[Ninos]

5 hours ago, BobbyD said:

The fickleness of some fans is alarming

Both players have been an integral part of our amazing current run since Mac has taken over. Where we have gone from the relegation places to one point off the play-offs.

There is no logic whatsoever to describe them as clueless. And, to boot, you are by implication saying that Mac is clueless as well by picking them game in and game out throughout his time here

Just because we were a bit off it yesterday (although we did have 17 shots) doesn't mean we brutally discard proven players and run to the bank of Mel at the first hint of adversity

Mac pulled both players early so even he prob wouldn't agree with you - at least based on what we saw v Wigan. They were both disturbingly very poor indeed.

[Nuwtfly]

Butters has been poor of late, but Russell has been poor for the last two seasons.

He runs and runs and runs but never produces anything. Yes, I know he does a good job at tracking back but going forward he offers virtually no goal threat and loses the ball a frustrating amount. Other than a striker, a new LW should be our No.1 priority in this window, as it's arguably our weakest area. 

[Alph]

1 hour ago, Carl Sagan said:

Another well thought out post, but spoilt by this bonkers last line. No we weren't!

 

Yeah there was a thread somewhere. 

Wasn't me. I love the white wizard

[Carl Sagan]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

Yeah there was a thread somewhere. 

Wasn't me. I love the white wizard

Let you off!

2 hours ago, Rampage said:

I pretty much always agree with your posts Carl. All I can say is that you must be good, perhaps too good.

Happy new Year Carl. I have really enjoyed your contribution to the best Forum west of the Pecos.COYR

@Rampage - what a guy! Right back at ya.

And Happy New Year to everyone on the forum. COYR

[PodgeyRam]

I was of the opinion in the first half that Russell and Butterfield should be replaced at halftime by Camara and Bryson. Butterfield in particular was frusting me. He was constantly slowing moves down. On several occasions Hughes picked the ball up and ran trying to break while Butterfield just stood in the middle of the park getting in his way and not offering a pass forward. McClaren obviously waited a bit longer than me but made the same decision.

In hindsight though, I don't think we looked any better when those two went off. Bryson didn't really get involved - how could he get involved up front when Bent was getting nowhere near the ball?

Thought Camara was disappointing when came on and didn't offer any more than Russell did. He looked scared to commit players and when he did he was light weight and like Russell simply knocked the ball into the legs of the opposition.

It is difficult to break down 11 men who are perfectly content to sit back and hit on the break. McClaren will have to find ways to get round that.

The more pressing concern is up front. Bent looked tired against Wigan, Vydra doesn't look up to much cop. A Martin-type striker (or Martin himself) is needed.

This is also the kind of match where we miss Thorne - Johnon for all his blood and guts, lacks the ability to thread a pass the way Thorne can. He would've helped us a lot.

[Comrade 86]

13 hours ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

I would actually say that Russell wasn't clueless yesterday,he made no mistakes other than just missing the shot that he got himself into position admirably for....

Butterfield on the other hand,made another set of careless mistakes with poorly placed passes going straight to the opposition and his long balls weren't much better either,Baird's efforts were by comparison,laser accurate.

I personally think that shakell will take over from butters the next game as Jacob seems to be one of the few players that hasn't improved during macs current reign and I'm mystified as to the reasons for that.

Yeah, because Shackell's passing ability is the stuff of legends, right? I'd say you've got considerably more chance of being hit by a low flying aircraft than seeing Shackell replace Butterfield in midfield.

[Alex W]

i don't think Russell was that poor against Wigan, things didn't come off for him but he was better imo, there was nothing to really gripe at him for. He was replaced because you can't really replace Ince at the moment and we wanted more creativity in Camara. Butterfield on the other hand was terrible, I would assume Bryson will be getting a start away at Norwich.

[BramcoteRam84]

The balance in midfield has been wrong for a while. Too deep, not supporting front players, either being overrun in midfield by better teams, or like on Saturday playing in front of teams without penetrating. On this run we've been on, only games where we really played well were Rotherham, second half v Norwich and second half v Forest. We've won through being solid, that gets you so far (although under Billy it some how got us all the way to promotion, still scratching my head about that nearly 10 years on!), to genuinely be promotion contenders, we need to improve and add goals and therefore need different options.

Butterfield is technically very good, but slows play down too much and lacks physicality, he's also too similar to Hughes.

 

Other than occasional performances (forest 2nd half) he's not done enough. Hughes has been frustrating recently although has been playing injured, but we know at his best he's the best player in this league. 

Weve missed a fully firing Bryson for his energy and we've missed Jeff for his energy and physicality. That's why Lansbury would be a great addition. If it doesn't happen, we need to be signing that type of player. I wouldn't sell butterfield or Bryson as we need a squad.

As for the forwards, Johnny was our best player on Saturday, but he's still the same as he was when he signed, too inconsistent not enough end product. We need to move on. I'm not sure about camara, Weimann's not getting a look in, I'd move the three of them out if we could and get Sakho in. He has pace, power and would give us a different option. Then if we can also get Martin back, think we'd have a genuine chance of promotion. Without, think we may just fall short.

But then when we win 5-0 at Carrow Road today may completely change my mind!! ?

 

[Anag Ram]

I think you're right. Only Ince should survive from the front three and we need at least one more midfield player.

4-3-3 puts strain on the three in midfield. They have to work incredibly hard and that's not sustainable week in, week out.

I am a little surprised how reluctant players seem to be to demand the ball. There's a lot of passing back immediately as if we lack confidence. As you say, we have won through good keeping, strong defending and hard work.

Sometimes a new player can bring new energy and impetus. However, we need the right type of character who will not disrupt the dressing room.

After a few disappointing forward acquisitions I hope we get it right this time.

Let's hope we get players who excite!

[Dimmu]

If Russell and Butters are our weakest links, we really are spoiled.