Nick Blackman - Let's give him a chance

[toddy]

4 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Of course there is always the odd possibility that we could "evolve" with CM! Too radical that?

That's called going backwards.......

[RoyMac5]

30 minutes ago, toddy said:

That's called going backwards.......

better get rid of Mac then...

[toddy]

3 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

better get rid of Mac then...

Sometimes you have to go back to move forward.

Other times we just need to move on....

[Wignall12]

No, not radical,  but he ain't coming back ..........there's more chance of the Gumps getting into Europe again 

[archied]

Some can't see past Chris Martin and that's their right to hold that view and of course there is good reason to feel that way given his record for us in the past ,, me I'm of the opinion that we should take the money and move on as I just have the feeling that we are a bit more solid in our aproach and it feels we are far more flexible in terms of changing the front line round a bit if we need to mid game if not firing or if we get injuries ,, that said I do think we want to be able to coach our current forwards or any we bring in to work on adding some of the stuff Martin did really well to their game in terms of dropping a bit deeper to link play or hold the ball up at times when needed and to vary our play so be less predictable and harder to have a game plan to play against us ,,,  don't forget Martin came to us on a free so was not setting the world alight so I'm pretty sure we can move forward and even improve on him long term

[Wignall12]

27 minutes ago, archied said:

Some can't see past Chris Martin and that's their right to hold that view and of course there is good reason to feel that way given his record for us in the past ,, me I'm of the opinion that we should take the money and move on as I just have the feeling that we are a bit more solid in our aproach and it feels we are far more flexible in terms of changing the front line round a bit if we need to mid game if not firing or if we get injuries ,, that said I do think we want to be able to coach our current forwards or any we bring in to work on adding some of the stuff Martin did really well to their game in terms of dropping a bit deeper to link play or hold the ball up at times when needed and to vary our play so be less predictable and harder to have a game plan to play against us ,,,  don't forget Martin came to us on a free so was not setting the world alight so I'm pretty sure we can move forward and even improve on him long term

Take the money, evolve .....we got sussed out the way we were playing and needed to adapt........we had no Plan B and a lot of folks on here said so but seem to have very short memory spans ??

[RoyMac5]

8 minutes ago, Wignall12 said:

Take the money, evolve .....we got sussed out the way we were playing and needed to adapt........we had no Plan B and a lot of folks on here said so but seem to have very short memory spans ??

No Plan B? Whatever. BTW Martin's scored again, so it can't be him that was sussed out can it?

[cannable]

15 minutes ago, Wignall12 said:

Take the money, evolve .....we got sussed out the way we were playing and needed to adapt........we had no Plan B and a lot of folks on here said so but seem to have very short memory spans ??

*sigh*

[Alph]

I think you can predict the exact way any decent team plays. From Barca to Brighton. 

How else are teams meant to do things instinctively and organise and get in shape within seconds. 

You don't have a Plan B. You have a plan A that's a bit broader than "pass to him" 

We always had alternatives to going through Martin. Mac spoke more than once of "full back games". It was never first choice but we won many games where Martin was quiet. We won them with Forsyth, Ward, Russell, Ibe, Ince etc. 

It's one thing for example, to know how Newcastle will come at us. It's another to stop them. And it's even more to stop them while trying to score ourselves. 

How did you stop a sussed out Derby? Drop a DM on Martin and an AM on Thorne? Does that fit your system or are you changing what you've rehearsed? 

When teams do it and pull off a win then people always say that that team is figured out. But then can't explain why they win 10 games in 18. Or why they go onto lift trophies. 

Derby will continue to be predictable under any good manager. And if an opponent stops us and manages to win then we have to take that. But if we play to our strengths then that's the best we can possibly be. No good playing a way that we don't know just to surprise the opponent. 

Let opponents change for us. The more change the better. It's the ones that just adjust slightly and still have their own predictable gameplan that will make the toughest tests. Because they are organised and instinctive. They'll do things fast. Play to their strengths rather than over worry about ours

Most teams that have come to us with the plan to not get beat have been beaten. A few get away. That'll do

[archied]

4 hours ago, Alpha said:

I think you can predict the exact way any decent team plays. From Barca to Brighton. 

How else are teams meant to do things instinctively and organise and get in shape within seconds. 

You don't have a Plan B. You have a plan A that's a bit broader than "pass to him" 

We always had alternatives to going through Martin. Mac spoke more than once of "full back games". It was never first choice but we won many games where Martin was quiet. We won them with Forsyth, Ward, Russell, Ibe, Ince etc. 

It's one thing for example, to know how Newcastle will come at us. It's another to stop them. And it's even more to stop them while trying to score ourselves. 

How did you stop a sussed out Derby? Drop a DM on Martin and an AM on Thorne? Does that fit your system or are you changing what you've rehearsed? 

When teams do it and pull off a win then people always say that that team is figured out. But then can't explain why they win 10 games in 18. Or why they go onto lift trophies. 

Derby will continue to be predictable under any good manager. And if an opponent stops us and manages to win then we have to take that. But if we play to our strengths then that's the best we can possibly be. No good playing a way that we don't know just to surprise the opponent. 

Let opponents change for us. The more change the better. It's the ones that just adjust slightly and still have their own predictable gameplan that will make the toughest tests. Because they are organised and instinctive. They'll do things fast. Play to their strengths rather than over worry about ours

Most teams that have come to us with the plan to not get beat have been beaten. A few get away. That'll do

You are right in lots of ways and the simple fact is a defender or a team might be on it on the day and snuff Martin and our team out , we may play them again and rip them a new one , it's just the way it is ,, my concern is that in the minds of a lot of fans ( perhaps the team too when he was here?) Martin has become some kind of mythical figure head , vital piece of the jigsaw that we cannot do without when he's not in the team or in it but not firing and all will fall into place if we can only get him back ,, martins a good player at this level ,, anybody who can't see that is a fool or biased against him but he s not the only good player out there and I would go as far as saying that there will be players out there as good who we can develop into being better 

[Sparkle]

6 hours ago, Alpha said:

I think you can predict the exact way any decent team plays. From Barca to Brighton. 

How else are teams meant to do things instinctively and organise and get in shape within seconds. 

You don't have a Plan B. You have a plan A that's a bit broader than "pass to him" 

We always had alternatives to going through Martin. Mac spoke more than once of "full back games". It was never first choice but we won many games where Martin was quiet. We won them with Forsyth, Ward, Russell, Ibe, Ince etc. 

It's one thing for example, to know how Newcastle will come at us. It's another to stop them. And it's even more to stop them while trying to score ourselves. 

How did you stop a sussed out Derby? Drop a DM on Martin and an AM on Thorne? Does that fit your system or are you changing what you've rehearsed? 

When teams do it and pull off a win then people always say that that team is figured out. But then can't explain why they win 10 games in 18. Or why they go onto lift trophies. 

Derby will continue to be predictable under any good manager. And if an opponent stops us and manages to win then we have to take that. But if we play to our strengths then that's the best we can possibly be. No good playing a way that we don't know just to surprise the opponent. 

Let opponents change for us. The more change the better. It's the ones that just adjust slightly and still have their own predictable gameplan that will make the toughest tests. Because they are organised and instinctive. They'll do things fast. Play to their strengths rather than over worry about ours

Most teams that have come to us with the plan to not get beat have been beaten. A few get away. That'll do

All true, and let's be currently honest from an attacking point of view if the opponents we face stop Ince currently then our goal scoring will start to be very difficult? 

[RoyMac5]

3 hours ago, archied said:

Martin has become some kind of mythical figure head , vital piece of the jigsaw that we cannot do without when he's not in the team or in it but not firing and all will fall into place if we can only get him back...

That's the point of a good goal-scorer or whichever position player who is standout. We thought we couldn't do without George, but Brad is good cover, does that mean we wouldn't want George back when fit?

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

Watching that goal by Jamie ward for Burton yesterday reminded me that we let go more than one bloody good player who would have been useful to  us at the moment......At least we knew he could find the onion bag unlike a few of the newbies

[Millenniumram]

4 hours ago, archied said:

You are right in lots of ways and the simple fact is a defender or a team might be on it on the day and snuff Martin and our team out , we may play them again and rip them a new one , it's just the way it is ,, my concern is that in the minds of a lot of fans ( perhaps the team too when he was here?) Martin has become some kind of mythical figure head , vital piece of the jigsaw that we cannot do without when he's not in the team or in it but not firing and all will fall into place if we can only get him back ,, martins a good player at this level ,, anybody who can't see that is a fool or biased against him but he s not the only good player out there and I would go as far as saying that there will be players out there as good who we can develop into being better 

This tends to by my issue with the constant talk of Martin, he's a good player at championship level, and what he's done for us in the past shouldn't ever be ignored- but the way some fans talk of him it's like he's irreplaceable, ignoring the fact that we've won 7/8 games without him playing a single minute. Pearson was a fool for letting him go to a potential rival, but there's life after chris Martin, and it all starts with getting the best out of Matej vydra

[unclej]

If we are serious about achieving anything this year we cannot play Blackman. 

[Alph]

41 minutes ago, unclej said:

If we are serious about achieving anything this year we cannot play Blackman. 

Tbf many would have said that about Johnson. I'd have been one of them back in August.

The guy used to clock up a 60>70% pass average. Low 60% at times too. 

[RIMBAUD]

32 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Tbf many would have said that about Johnson. I'd have been one of them back in August.

The guy used to clock up a 60>70% pass average. Low 60% at times too. 

Actually you could have said that about every player under our previous manager. SMS return has led to all of them improving imo.  Perhaps Blackman will be better too.

[archied]

21 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

That's the point of a good goal-scorer or whichever position player who is standout. We thought we couldn't do without George, but Brad is good cover, does that mean we wouldn't want George back when fit?

What it tells me is that George Thorne is nowhere near as vital to us as we have made him in our minds ,we have put a player in his position who is just learning the role , he is a different type of player , plays the role a bit differently but by god he is doing a fantastic job in his own way using his own best qualities ,not trying to be George Thorne but rather bring Bradly Johnson to the role  ,, watching yesterday's game I would be even less inclined to rush out and bring back Martin at all costs as some want,, we no longer look to have a Martin type striker hold it up and flick it on with our midfield running beyond him all the time and by god it's kinda nice not feeling that we are likely to be naive and get exposed at any minute and perhaps crumble and cave in from winning positions ,, Martin as I say is a decent player at this level and perhaps could do a decent job for us if he came back but he is far far far from the vital be all end all player some see him as ,, we are a different team now , far better balanced between all out gun ho attack and staying more disciplined to take advantage of our flair players and pace 

[Alph]

We still need a striker. We've only got one. Hopefully Blackman proves us wrong. 

I don't agree that we use our striker much differently to Martin.

The very reason Vydra is struggling is because he's only interested in the end of the story. 

Yesterday the way we managed to get at Brum many times was because Ince and Bent would give Keogh an option while the midfield movement created a gap for the ball. 

Whether you want Martin at Derby, Fulham or anywhere else the role of a striker in our system requires you to drop in. If he doesn't then we end up running out of options and going long. Where Vydra is even worse because he's poor physically. 

I think if you watch some of our less impressive performances recently 

Wigan - Vydra started

QPR - Bent played like his old self. He looked tired and isolated 

Fulham - Vydra started

Then you see how our midfield 3 start coming deeper and deeper to get on the ball but in doing that the front 3 get further and further away. 

So Martin or not, we haven't changed that much imo and we still need a striker

 

[Gritty]

On 24/12/2016 at 04:50, MuespachRam said:

he is rubbish....his goals over his entire career have been rubbish, he has been rubbish since he joined us and there is nothing to suggest he won't be rubbish for the rest of his career

I appreciate (hope) there may be some irony in this post.  But I don't think it helpful. All members of the Derby squad are actually very good players at this level in terms of talent. Sometimes the formation chosen by the manager may not suit them. Sometimes they may have injury niggles. Sometimes they may be low on confidence which affects their form.  Sometimes they may need a settled run in the side to get into the groove.

But to suggest that they are inherently rubbish is just wrong. One only needs to look at Ince, Baird, Pearce, BJ to see how players can perform poorly and then well again.  

I think Russell is currently struggling to be at the same level as the rest of the team. But I don't think he's rubbish. I think he's jaded and may need a break and a chance to refocus.