The Hughes Debate

[Sparkle]

All about opinions but I believe if will was the score a regular 6-8 goals a season his value will end up 50% higher than it probably is to a purchaser, and he does have the chances to score but does not put them away powerfully enough to get them in the net

[TheDeadlySaul]

Can this thread not turn into a la liga circlejerk 

[Alph]

Take him out the team for a bit and you'll soon stop the whinging.

Maybe he brings the best out in the other players? Right ball at the right time? Creates time and space for others? 

That's before we even mention his tackling. 

Is it just me that doesn't care about the whether Blackburn would be good in Spain? 

The point in the OP wasn't "here's why he's as good as Iniesta." It was more to prove football might on the face of it to appear to be about goals. But there's a way of giving yourself a chance of scoring more and sometimes you can become the greatest midfielder of a generation by bringing out the best in others. 

Would have thought people would recognise the type of player Hughes is by now. He boosts Derby as a team with his selfless instincts. If his instinct was to shoot on sight and smash 10 goals in per season how do you know that as a team that wouldn't make us weaker. That we wouldn't lose 10 goals elsewhere or concede 10 goals by playing Ben Davies panic passing

[jono]

4 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

Looking at these figures highlights to me (and would to Will) that he needs to double his goalscoring. He's an incredible talent with tremendous workrate both on the field and in training, but neither Xavi nor Iniesta is known for scoring goals yet both are twice as prolific as our Will.

That said, he was unexpectedly unlucky with that header the other day when the rebound fell to Ince. Good effort, young man.

Nail on the head Carl. Assists on a par, bar the shouting and allowing for age. He is playing at a certain level,  just as they are, so stats versus quality even out. If will is to be the complete article he needs to add goals. He is a creative advanced midfielder and needs a few goals. He is still probably the most desired championship midfielder but that icing would go a long way to confirming what we all know .. He is Prem class. 

I'd a whole lot happier if we got a 4 year contract signed followed in quick succession by half a dozen goals 

[Warren Hobhead]

Imagine coming to Derby and using Hughes deep and Butterfield on the wing, then not winning games. 

 

Pearson must never have watched some of our players before he came. 

 

He departs, Powell and now Mac play players in positions they're comfortable in a system the team are comfortable playing, and ta-daaaa, we are looking a force again. 

 

I remember Hughes and Butterfield both saying in interviews before Pearson left that "good players can adapt" or words to that effect but I can't help thinking they were coached into saying that or said it through gritted teeth. 

 

I sell property for a living. If someone asked me to renovate property I'd struggle. 

 

On topic, I like others believe Hughes lack of goal and assist output keeps him a Derby player. So I'm happy with that.

[RodleyRam]

4 hours ago, toddy said:

Unfortunately Barca have a front 3 that clock 100 goals a season.

We like most other clubs rely on midfielders that can add to the goals tally.

Hughes is a great midfielder - but at championship level, comparing him to two of the best midfielders in the 10 years is soft.

As a result you'd expect their creative midfielders' assists ratio to be significantly higher too though but the stats don't necessarily reflect that. First the record I think Will needs to score more goals, he has technique ad composure in abundance so it feels that it's his intent that's lacking. Maybe that's harsh

[Tombo]

3 minutes ago, Warren Hobhead said:

He departs, Powell and now Mac I remember Hughes and Butterfield both saying in interviews before Pearson left that "good players can adapt" or words to that effect but I can't help thinking they were coached into saying that or said it through gritted teeth. 

I think they genuinely blamed themselves for not adapting. You would I think, wouldn't you? I mean they obviously had some respect for Pearsons management skills, at least at first. He comes in and they can't quite hack what he's asking of them, they get downhearted and blame themselves. 

How Pearson didn't identify this lack of confidence and try to alleviate it, I don't know. He preferred to blast them for not getting it right publicly instead. It was clear to see that they tried to buy into his ideas but they were just never going to work. 

[Ellafella]

4 hours ago, Daz_The_Ram said:

What this man said.

My views on this sort of thing are well known on here. Blindly quoting numbers and statistics tells me nothing about football.
By that sort of reckoning, the top scorer in the Belgian league is as useful a centre forward as either Costa or Aguero...utter nonsense.

Xavi and Inieista are two of the greats of their generation. Lets calm down a bit about Hughes eh? He isn't anywhere near the finished article in the Championship yet.

Levels. 

I think you have made a good point about different standards of competition Sir; that said, I think you have also been a bit too dismissive of numbers and statistics. Whether we like it or not, statistics and numbers are a large part of modern football...nay every part of life because they provide evidence of what we are thinking. 

{Cue Angry...}

[Parsnip]

One of my favorite players of recent years was Arteta - he was brilliant in his first couple of seasons at Everton without really scoring goals - but once he added goals to his game he became one of the best midfielders in the league.

That'll be Will that will.

[Warren Hobhead]

21 minutes ago, Tombo said:

I think they genuinely blamed themselves for not adapting. You would I think, wouldn't you? I mean they obviously had some respect for Pearsons management skills, at least at first. He comes in and they can't quite hack what he's asking of them, they get downhearted and blame themselves. 

How Pearson didn't identify this lack of confidence and try to alleviate it, I don't know. He preferred to blast them for not getting it right publicly instead. It was clear to see that they tried to buy into his ideas but they were just never going to work. 

I think they tried. I never saw a lack of effort. But as talented as they are I felt it was absurd to station them where he did. And as I say, as soon as he departed both players were back in their favoured positions and we've picked up points. 

 

One day soon Butters might even smile..

[Rev]

I think most decent Championship midfielders can pass the ball well, so that doesn't set him apart for me.

What does is his ability to play the best pass, he almost never leaves the recipient in trouble.

I honestly think he sees moves three or four stages ahead of most other players, including sometimes our own!

He'll never be a dynamic, eye-catching goalscoring mid like Gerrard or even Dele Alli, more a Alonso type knitting it all together and making a team tick.

Spurs would be a fantastic fit for him, with Dier or Wanyama protecting, and Alli marauding, he'd slot straight in between them, probably the only top 6 team I think he'd improve at this moment, as good as he is.

He'll sign a new deal I'm sure, but we can't hold him back much longer if we don't move up ourselves, I'd say he owes us nothing already.

[Ellafella]

6 hours ago, loughboroughRAM said:

Been a lot of talk about Hughes lately with some claiming that he doesn't score/assist enough to be worth the amount others claim he is. This got me thinking, of all the great midfielders who would I liken him to the most? My immediate reaction was that he could be likened to Iniesta and Xavi - two of the best CMs and also possibly one of the best CM partnerships of a generation when Barca were in their prime a few years back. This led me to look at their respective stats to see how they compare and it came as little surprise that they were hardly earth shattering;

                       G              A

Iniesta       1 in 11       1 in 7      (406 apps) https://www.statbunker.com/players/getPlayerStats?player_id=17798

Xavi            1 in 8        1 in 7      (428 apps) https://www.statbunker.com/players/getPlayerStats?player_id=4813

Hughes     1 in 19      1 in 8       (111 apps) https://www.whoscored.com/Players/108638/History/Will-Hughes

(All stats rounded up to nearest whole number)

Looking at these figures highlights that Hughes' contribution to Derby is not a million miles off Xavi and Iniesta when looking purely at goals and assists, and he is still a fair number of years off his peak which needs to be taken into consideration. Xavi and Iniesta have not only peaked, but they peaked as part of one of the best teams ever.

I can't imagine many people ever complained that those two didn't score or assist enough - so why do we? Just like Xavi and Iniesta, Will is integral to how we play and without him we are much worse off. Yeah it would be nice if he did score and assist more, but who cares? That will come as he develops, for now lets just appreciate his genius.

Great post LoughboroughRam.

I like that you use data to evidence your views. Others have picked up the point about comparability...can you compare the Championship with La Liga? Isn't the latter so much higher than the former that it destroys the argument? Well, it probably does to a degree and we can debate that ad infinitum. Yet the thing is that when I watched Will make his debut at 17, and saw him run midfield that day, and then saw him subsequently run games the following season, when I eventually stood next to him outside Pride Park, I couldn't believe that the very young, quite frail-looking blonde boy in front of me (Steve Bloomer was also frail-looking!) was the same chap who I watched with such open-mouthed admiration. He played those games with such advanced maturity. (I also was present when at a forum Daren Wassall said that at 16 you could not have predicted Will's rise...). So the point is, if Will has such precocious talent now, and continues to develop on the same developmental trajectory, he will undoubtedly be on a par with those players with whom you compare him too now. But the underlined bit is the $64,000 question (or maybe the £15m one!). It is not guaranteed that that level of development will take the same trajectory. I happen to think it will, I think he will blossom even more and more.

Three more points:

1. I like that Mac is starting to just give Will little prods (ie naming him in post-match and upping his expectation a little). This is setting Will a challenge. Will can and does need to add more goals to his game...BUT it's not disasterous if he doesn't. 

2. If Goals and Assists are not the kernal of Will's unique contribution, then what is* ? Can we find a statistic that clearly demonstrates Will's superiority in this specific aspect of the game? The flick-goal V BHAFC and the lofted-pass to Bent I think betrays the unique vision that Will possesses. I call it "360 degree-ness"; he just seems to "know" where a player will be in 1-2 seconds time and he then plays a rudder-like pass (you think the boat is going right and it goes left). His uniqueness to me is his extraordinary "sight" ...the only real analogy is of a photograph taken with a normal camera and then one taken with a fish-eye lens. I just don't think there is a statistic will reflect this extraordinary ability (imagine how his brain is working and at what speed when he does these things?!) I suspect that when they happen, Will himself doesn't have "conscious" insight to what he's doing...he will just be "in the zone" and doing what comes naturally (for a perfect explanation of a sportsman being "in the zone" read Michael Atherton's account of his 7(?) hour innings against South Africa some years back when Alan Donald was bowling at 105mph and Atherton was almost "watching myself perfectly time the ball to a half-volleyed off drive for 4" in an almost detached out-of-body way).

3. It isn't surprising that Will is now looking for an improved contract deal; he is an intelligent guy and he knows for his future's sake that he needs to generate some heat. Hopefully, DCFC can match his ambition and in the passage of a few months we will have it sorted {playoffs and promotion} because Will needs to play at a higher level if he is to meet his potential. He also needs to start upping his game even further. Mac is the perfect coach to guide him.  

The whole debate merits a close investigation into the various comparative stats available about championship midfielders which I think I will  trot out soon {"OH NO! @Angry Ram groans}. 

 

* Will also has plenty of other attributes too, not least of which is strength and tackling. He also has an excellent temperament which he will need to develop further because teams (as Norwich did) will try and muscle him. Wigan will too this weekend.Altogether, William's attributes make him the team's CPU. That's why I think also that Will's best comes out when Bryson plays, because Bryson takes away some of the hod-carrying that Will has to do when Bryson's out. 

 

[RamuelLJackson]

6 hours ago, Joe. said:

I can see where you're coming from, and I'm not that bothered about Hughes not being a massive goal scorer.

But it's difficult to compare to Barcelona when they have a front 3 that are always going to average probably 60 goals between them.

You're right. It's much easier to get an assist playing in midfield for Barcelona than Derby. Hughes is better than Iniesta. You heard it here first.

[Sexydadbod]

Hughes is more in the Ozil mold than Xavi or Iniesta. Whilst he is very good at keeping the ball, he doesn't control the game per se like Xavi or Iniesta did or like Thorne(when fit) does. He is more of a forward thinking player where his first instinct is too pass it forwards. I've stated this before and I'll state this again, for Hughes to go to the next level he may have to move into one of the wide areas to improve his game like Ozil did in his younger years before moving back centrally when he is older. Aaron Ramsey stated that it improved him as a player playing as a right mid for Arsenal as there is more time and space. On the other hand, it can be said that Hughes naturally drifts over to the right of midfield.

[Alph]

16 minutes ago, RamuelLJackson said:

You're right. It's much easier to get an assist playing in midfield for Barcelona than Derby. Hughes is better than Iniesta. You heard it here first.

Not quite what he said but Barcelona are miles better than the rest of their league. Derby aren't. Barcelona dominate possession, territory and chances in pretty much every game. 

Hughes isn't good enough for Barcelona but it's all relative.

Would Iniesta look as good for Barcelona if he played for Rotherham? Would Messi score more than 1 goal per game for Sunderland? 

Players find their level and I'm not suggesting Hughes would be good for Barcelona. But yeah, I think its easier to get an assist for Barcelona than Derby. I think Iniesta's teammates make his game easier for him than Hughes' team make his game. Iniesta gives more than Hughes. But in context I think Iniesta has an easier game. And so he should because he's earned it. 

[Angry Ram]

1 hour ago, Ellafella said:

 

The whole debate merits a close investigation into the various comparative stats available about championship midfielders which I think I will  trot out soon {"OH NO! @Angry Ram groans}. 

I never groan at your posts mate.. You keep doing them stats, I enjoy taking them apart.. 

 

 

[JarodyDCFC]

As long as he puts in a good performance he doesn't need a goal or assist. 

[RamuelLJackson]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

Would Iniesta look as good for Barcelona if he played for Rotherham?

Umm... no?

[Sexydadbod]

58 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Not quite what he said but Barcelona are miles better than the rest of their league. Derby aren't. Barcelona dominate possession, territory and chances in pretty much every game. 

Hughes isn't good enough for Barcelona but it's all relative.

Would Iniesta look as good for Barcelona if he played for Rotherham? Would Messi score more than 1 goal per game for Sunderland? 

Players find their level and I'm not suggesting Hughes would be good for Barcelona. But yeah, I think its easier to get an assist for Barcelona than Derby. I think Iniesta's teammates make his game easier for him than Hughes' team make his game. Iniesta gives more than Hughes. But in context I think Iniesta has an easier game. And so he should because he's earned it. 

I understand what you're saying but I think it's more of a case that Iniesta makes it easier for his teammates rather than his teammate's making it easier for him. He's not a one man team as such but having him on the field makes all the barca players improve. One example was Man city v Barcelona at the etihad a few weeks ago. Barcelona mentally collapsed in the second half and couldn't keep their ball to save their lives and the same happened in their last game against real sociedad. If they had Iniesta they wouldn't have collapsed like they did in both games in my opinion. Barcelona have looked very,very ordinary without Iniesta in recent weeks to put in lightly. Iniesta is a very special player indeed. People forget that he suffered from depression too a few years ago so to come back from something like that and to continue to put in high level consistent performances shows how truly great he is. 

[Joe.]

1 hour ago, RamuelLJackson said:

You're right. It's much easier to get an assist playing in midfield for Barcelona than Derby. Hughes is better than Iniesta. You heard it here first.

Even I'd get a few to be fair