The Hughes Debate

[bcnram]

24 minutes ago, Daz_The_Ram said:

SERIOUSLY? Honestly, these forums are an absolute joke.

Stefano Eranio will do for me. For goodness sake, Todd, McFarland and Gemmell turned out for us in the late seventies for a start, but I didn't really want to have to go there. 

Wright, Stimac, McGrath, for a kick off ... one of which, an absolutely universally accepted legend of the game , have all turned out for us 'in the last four decades ... or you could go Kinkladze, Johnson, Baiano, Asanovic to throw four more names out there. Streets ahead of those guys, Hughes certainly is not.

As promising as he is, Hughes hasn't even cut his teeth in the top flight yet. Let's behave ourselves on here shall we?

You are funny!!

You have just thrown in some random names all of which are fine players (not sure about Johnson though), so that I can have a little more faith in your dubious judgement, how many of these have you actually seen play? 

ps. You have listed some very inconsistent players there as well.

[Sexydadbod]

3 minutes ago, Derby_EnglandLoyal said:

Hughesy is world class end of. ??

Not better than Blackman though 

[ronnieronalde]

I can understand how people may have "missed" jeff's ability and value to the side.

I can't even begin to understand how anyone who knows football can "miss" what Hughes is about. He's been the best English player and prospect of his generation at all age groups, they were talking about him when he was 14 as being one to watch, he then made his professional debut at 16, and since then has never looked out of place at any level or against any side he's come up against.

His vision and intelligence are something you rarely see, when that comes in the shape of a kid who at 21 already has 5 years and close to 150 games under his belt at championship level then you can see he's far from ordinary.

I'm not entirely sure what's stopped top teams going for him, whether it was the injury or the fact he/we didn't think the time was right but it's a nailed on certainty that he's going to the top some point soon.

@McLovin your thoughts on him ending up a mid table premier league side will be proven wildly wrong.

He's got class stamped all over him and will be playing champions league and international football in 3 seasons max. It's just unfortunate he'll only achieve that if he leaves Derby :-(

[DEL]

3 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

I can understand how people may have "missed" jeff's ability and value to the side.

I can't even begin to understand how anyone who knows football can "miss" what Hughes is about. He's been the best English player and prospect of his generation at all age groups, they were talking about him when he was 14 as being one to watch, he then made his professional debut at 16, and since then has never looked out of place at any level or against any side he's come up against.

His vision and intelligence are something you rarely see, when that comes in the shape of a kid who at 21 already has 5 years and close to 150 games under his belt at championship level then you can see he's far from ordinary.

I'm not entirely sure what's stopped top teams going for him, whether it was the injury or the fact he/we didn't think the time was right but it's a nailed on certainty that he's going to the top some point soon.

@McLovin your thoughts on him ending up a mid table premier league side will be proven wildly wrong.

He's got class stamped all over him and will be playing champions league and international football in 3 seasons max. It's just unfortunate he'll only achieve that if he leaves Derby :-(

Let's hope we'll go up this season mate and Anyone who knows football a lot will say Hughesy is top class player end of the debate. ??

[Sexydadbod]

1 minute ago, ronnieronalde said:

I can understand how people may have "missed" jeff's ability and value to the side.

I can't even begin to understand how anyone who knows football can "miss" what Hughes is about. He's been the best English player and prospect of his generation at all age groups, they were talking about him when he was 14 as being one to watch, he then made his professional debut at 16, and since then has never looked out of place at any level or against any side he's come up against.

His vision and intelligence are something you rarely see, when that comes in the shape of a kid who at 21 already has 5 years and close to 150 games under his belt at championship level then you can see he's far from ordinary.

I'm not entirely sure what's stopped top teams going for him, whether it was the injury or the fact he/we didn't think the time was right but it's a nailed on certainty that he's going to the top some point soon.

@McLovin your thoughts on him ending up a mid table premier league side will be proven wildly wrong.

He's got class stamped all over him and will be playing champions league and international football in 3 seasons max. It's just unfortunate he'll only achieve that if he leaves Derby :-(

Right for the sake of the argument, which top premier league teams do you think he will get into? The likes of Chalobah and Loftus Cheek(both who were rated higher than Hughes in their younger years) aren't regulars in the Chelsea team and they came through Chelsea's academy. It's no good for Hughes' development if he just goes to a premier league team to sit on the bench. The only current top 10 prem team(as it stands) Hughes would be a starter in is West Brom's and he doesn't suit their style of football at all.  The top teams will just go for the cheap alternatives from abroad rather than English players that cost a premium. Even if you look at the lesser premier league teams like Crystal Palace, would he get into the team ahead of Cabaye? No chance for me. Hughes has demonstrated that he can play in a 3 man midfield very well but only a handful of teams in the prem play with a 3 man midfield. Most play a varient of the 4-2-3-1 formation(similar to what Pearson adopted at the start of the season) and he wasn't his best there in a 2 man midfield alongside Bryson. 

[Sexydadbod]

I think it's best for Hughes development to stay with us for another few years rather than sitting on some premier league teams' bench.

[ronnieronalde]

10 minutes ago, McLovin said:

Right for the sake of the argument, which top premier league teams do you think he will get into? The likes of Chalobah and Loftus Cheek(both who were rated higher than Hughes in their younger years) aren't regulars in the Chelsea team and they came through Chelsea's academy. It's no good for Hughes' development if he just goes to a premier league team to sit on the bench. The only current top 10 prem team(as it stands) Hughes would be a starter in is West Brom's and he doesn't suit their style of football at all.  The top teams will just go for the cheap alternatives from abroad rather than English players that cost a premium. Even if you look at the lesser premier league teams like Crystal Palace, would he get into the team ahead of Cabaye? No chance for me. Hughes has demonstrated that he can play in a 3 man midfield very well but only a handful of teams in the prem play with a 3 man midfield. Most play a varient of the 4-2-3-1 formation(similar to what Pearson adopted at the start of the season) and he wasn't his best there in a 2 man midfield alongside Bryson. 

I don't think it's as simple a question of which top sides would he get into,

If you look at Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool or Man Utd, of course you could come up with two or three midfielders at least who you would probably pick ahead of Hughes right now.

It's ONCE he get's into any of those sides the question gets clearer. Once he's in, somebody has to get the shirt back off him.

Exactly the same as when he ran riingss around Sunderland and Villa in the pre-season friendlies, it was clear he was special and it was clear he HAD to be picked. From then he was in the side as a permanent fixture going forward.

I don't think we'll know just how good he'll be until he's in a side surrounded by players who are as good as he is, as quick thinking, as able as he is  to spot the pass he's capable of playing. He's different, he's special, I'd have thought you'd have absolutely idolised him cos he's the closest thin England have got to a Spanish style midfielder.

We'll have to revisit this in a couple of seasons time, at which point I expect Hughesy to be playing for a top 6 side in England or a top 4 side in Spain and he'll be one of three attacking central midfielders playing for the national side. You could build the side around Hughes, Lallana and Dele Ali and know we'd be in decent shape.

 

[Daz_The_Ram]

35 minutes ago, bcnram said:

You are funny!!

You have just thrown in some random names all of which are fine players (not sure about Johnson though), so that I can have a little more faith in your dubious judgement, how many of these have you actually seen play? 

ps. You have listed some very inconsistent players there as well.

I've seen every single one of them you condescending so and so...barring of course Roy Mac, Todd and Gemmell. My Rams journey started in 1988. Which by the way, wasn't such a bad season. 

Very inconsistent? Yes, thats right, because Hughes never goes missing does he?

Honestly this is ridiculous. Exactly how many seasons has Hughes played his trade in the top flight to date? And how many full international caps has he? How many international tournaments has he played in? Starred in? 

The answer to all of the above ... none. And as for medals on the table...?
 

'Best in 40 years'

'World Class' ...

Utter poppycock. 

 

[Daz_The_Ram]

26 minutes ago, McLovin said:

Right for the sake of the argument, which top premier league teams do you think he will get into? The likes of Chalobah and Loftus Cheek(both who were rated higher than Hughes in their younger years) aren't regulars in the Chelsea team and they came through Chelsea's academy. It's no good for Hughes' development if he just goes to a premier league team to sit on the bench. The only current top 10 prem team(as it stands) Hughes would be a starter in is West Brom's and he doesn't suit their style of football at all.  The top teams will just go for the cheap alternatives from abroad rather than English players that cost a premium. Even if you look at the lesser premier league teams like Crystal Palace, would he get into the team ahead of Cabaye? No chance for me. Hughes has demonstrated that he can play in a 3 man midfield very well but only a handful of teams in the prem play with a 3 man midfield. Most play a varient of the 4-2-3-1 formation(similar to what Pearson adopted at the start of the season) and he wasn't his best there in a 2 man midfield alongside Bryson. 

Correct. There have, by the way ... been no concrete bids for him whatsoever to date from any of these 'top clubs' we seem to think he would just waltz into.

None. Zero. Nil. Nada. Zilch.

[Alph]

Lingard plays for Man United and England. Who had that down when he was here? 

[Alph]

1 hour ago, McLovin said:

Let's calm it down a little shall we. I think he will go on to be a mid table premier league team eventually. World class? No chance. To call him the best player in the league by some distance is quite a comment to make when it's debatable whether he is even the best player at this club. 

He's the best player at the club. It's not even close.

Grass is always greener though

[Alph]

1 hour ago, Daz_The_Ram said:

SERIOUSLY? Honestly, these forums are an absolute joke.
 

It's not compulsory to read, sign up and then start posting. 

 

[Sexydadbod]

16 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

I don't think it's as simple a question of which top sides would he get into,

If you look at Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool or Man Utd, of course you could come up with two or three midfielders at least who you would probably pick ahead of Hughes right now.

It's ONCE he get's into any of those sides the question gets clearer. Once he's in, somebody has to get the shirt back off him.

Exactly the same as when he ran riingss around Sunderland and Villa in the pre-season friendlies, it was clear he was special and it was clear he HAD to be picked. From then he was in the side as a permanent fixture going forward.

I don't think we'll know just how good he'll be until he's in a side surrounded by players who are as good as he is, as quick thinking, as able as he is  to spot the pass he's capable of playing. He's different, he's special, I'd have thought you'd have absolutely idolised him cos he's the closest thin England have got to a Spanish style midfielder.

We'll have to revisit this in a couple of seasons time, at which point I expect Hughesy to be playing for a top 6 side in England or a top 4 side in Spain and he'll be one of three attacking central midfielders playing for the national side. You could build the side around Hughes, Lallana and Dele Ali and know we'd be in decent shape.

 

You make a valid argument. Don't get me wrong I love Hughes and his style, he makes it look so easy but I don't buy the argument that he is going to be this great world class player, when they're better and cheaper alternatives abroad whom the managers are more familar with. I think people tend to forget that we are in the championship, which in the grand scheme of things is not a very strong league. I think Liverpool are the one team that Hughes would benefit from immensely, but would Klopp want him when he is more familiar with players from the german market i.e Dahoud? If Rodgers was still at Liverpool, he may have signed him because he is more familiar with British players.Next to no English players live up to their hype for a variety of reasons. If Hughes is lucky enough to make it into the prem(which I'm sure he will), he would have had a very good career. I just don't think we should put unnecessary pressure on him when I've seen it many a time that once an English player gets hyped up too much, they tend to fall dramatically.

[Sexydadbod]

5 minutes ago, Alpha said:

He's the best player at the club. It's not even close.

Grass is always greener though

I'd argue that Thorne is at least on his level(when bloody fit). We all saw how fragile we were in the play off semi final first leg against Hull because we had no control in the midfield. Thorne had the ability to make other players look better than they were, which I don't think Hughes has quite mastered yet, although he is getting there

[cannable]

2 hours ago, ronnieronalde said:

how many games has Thorne been available for since he got to the club?

Part of being a "great" player means you need to be ready mentally and physically week in week out.

There'll be question marks over George right throughout his career as so far he's been unlucky enough and unable to string a season together.

Aside from that, I STILL think Will is the better player.

George is class but Will is special, I'll take some stick for this but I actually think it's the way the teams was being picked and played that has stopped Will from playing his true game.

The lad is on a different wavelength to the majority of his peers.

Willberforce is a better player in terms of skillset but George utilises what he has more regularly in game scenarios. But by that it also means I think Will has a greater scope to improve. When he gets back to the level he displayed against Hull, Brighton and Wednesday during last season's run in that'll be when he's overtake Thorne in my opinion.

It's only as a result of circumstance that they haven't played for England. 

 

[toddy]

Hughes is not world class!

Hughes may develop into a world class player in future years, he is still young and still learning his trade -  we need some perspective here.

Hughes is currently possibly one of the best midfielders in the championship.

[Daz_The_Ram]

3 minutes ago, Alpha said:

It's not compulsory to read, sign up and then start posting. 

 

It is ... however, compulsIVE.

[cannable]

Just now, McLovin said:

I'd argue that Thorne is at least on his level(when bloody fit). We all saw how fragile we were in the play off semi final first leg against Hull because we had no control in the midfield. Thorne had the ability to make other players look better than they were, which I don't think Hughes has quite mastered yet, although he is getting there

Hughes was just about the only Derby player who tried to play actual football against Hull and who came out with any credit. 

[Sexydadbod]

1 minute ago, cannable said:

Hughes was just about the only Derby player who tried to play actual football against Hull and who came out with any credit. 

I didn't deny that buddy. I was just responding to the comment that Hughes is by far the best player at the club. Easy for me to say this now, but had Thorne played in that game, I very much doubt we would have lost 3-0. Shame we can't have just one full season with both of them in the team. 

[bcnram]

18 minutes ago, Daz_The_Ram said:

I've seen every single one of them you condescending so and so...barring of course Roy Mac, Todd and Gemmell. My Rams journey started in 1988. Which by the way, wasn't such a bad season. 

Very inconsistent? Yes, thats right, because Hughes never goes missing does he?

Honestly this is ridiculous. Exactly how many seasons has Hughes played his trade in the top flight to date? And how many full international caps has he? How many international tournaments has he played in? Starred in? 

The answer to all of the above ... none. And as for medals on the table...?
 

'Best in 40 years'

'World Class' ...

Utter poppycock. 

 

Me condescending? how can you say that you cheeky rascal you!!

I rarely see Hughes go missing, but of those you claim to have seen as a youngster Kinkladze while he had magic in his feet, you never knew which player was going to turn up. Wright was a good centre half, Stimac was excellent for Derby, Asonovic see same comment as Kinky and Baiano was a decent forward but hadn't had a great career either before or after Derby. McGrath was a super player but couldn't train.

I haven't said that Hughes is World Class, I do agree with whoever posted it that he is probably the best player in the last 40 years at Derby.