The Hughes Debate

[MuespachRam]

35 minutes ago, Daz_The_Ram said:

I've seen every single one of them you condescending so and so...barring of course Roy Mac, Todd and Gemmell. My Rams journey started in 1988. Which by the way, wasn't such a bad season. 

Very inconsistent? Yes, thats right, because Hughes never goes missing does he?

Honestly this is ridiculous. Exactly how many seasons has Hughes played his trade in the top flight to date? And how many full international caps has he? How many international tournaments has he played in? Starred in? 

The answer to all of the above ... none. And as for medals on the table...?
 

'Best in 40 years'

'World Class' ...

Utter poppycock. 

 

Not to dismiss your point but...ask Wes Brown to put his medals on the table...he played 300+ premier league games, won 5 titles, a couple of FA Cups, I am thinking a few Charity shields and 2 European cups.....and I wouldn't have put him in a team in the Derby Taveners league.

 

[MuespachRam]

1 hour ago, McLovin said:

Not even Thorne?

Nowhere near...not even in the same universe as Hughes....

[brady1993]

1 hour ago, McLovin said:

It depends on what your criteria is to be deemed a world class player. The term world class is thrown around lots these day. World class to me means top 5 in their respective positions. You may have a different criteria. Whilst he has the talent to become a very good player, to say potentially world class is going a bit ott for me, especially when most potentially world class talents are snapped him up by big clubs by his age(or a few years before). However, that doesn't mean he is going to have a bad career. I just think we should calm down on the praise for the time being because it could eventually end up putting unnecessary pressure on the lad, like we have seen with many english players in the past. See what happened to Michael Johnson from Man City as a good example.

Ok fair enough if you define world class as such (To be honest it's a pretty good definition and one I might steal ) then I agree that it's very unlikely he will make it that far because as you say usually your world class players are already playing at the top by his age (Not always though, Bale is probably a good example). When I said potential to be world class I was more thinking first team for a top 4 team in one of the big european leagues, and I meant it as a chance rather than a certainty. 

I agree about not wanting to put unnecessary pressure on the lad, and I do think some fans forget he is only 21 when talking about him. We should just enjoy the talent we have on our hands, whilst we still have him

[Sexydadbod]

15 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

Ok fair enough if you define world class as such (To be honest it's a pretty good definition and one I might steal ) then I agree that it's very unlikely he will make it that far because as you say usually your world class players are already playing at the top by his age (Not always though, Bale is probably a good example). When I said potential to be world class I was more thinking first team for a top 4 team in one of the big european leagues, and I meant it as a chance rather than a certainty. 

I agree about not wanting to put unnecessary pressure on the lad, and I do think some fans forget he is only 21 when talking about him. We should just enjoy the talent we have on our hands, whilst we still have him

Yeah. I don't even consider the likes of Payet to be world class. For me, the only genuine world class players currently in the prem are De Gea, Lloris, Hazard, Ozil, Aguero, De Bruyne and maybe Diego Costa. If Kante continues his good form for the rest of the season for Chelsea then he will make it into the world class bracket for me

[Alph]

47 minutes ago, McLovin said:

I'd argue that Thorne is at least on his level(when bloody fit). We all saw how fragile we were in the play off semi final first leg against Hull because we had no control in the midfield. Thorne had the ability to make other players look better than they were, which I don't think Hughes has quite mastered yet, although he is getting there

Hughes went on to be brilliant in the 2nd leg. The 1st leg was all Keogh hitting long diagonals. Was no use to anyone. You can't control midfield if you kick it over them.

Defensive midfield is the easiest position to play (was always mine!!). It has more options and less opposition than any other part of the pitch. If you have discipline and aren't a glory hunter then you can't do too badly. Thorne is very good but that position is there to dictate from. Even Bradley Johnson who's passing isn't the best is now dictating direction and tempo.

Hughes does exactly what you suggest he hasn't mastered. The right ball at the right time. He makes life easy. And he does this under far more pressure than Thorne and in attacking areas. 

Theres been games where Thorne has struggled to shake off the man the opposition have sat on him. He's essentially been marked out the game several times. Which isn't a problem with me because not every game is for everyone to shine. 

Hughes has performed at a consistently high level since breaking into the team. His arrival saw the end of Bryson and Hendrick chasing shadows. 

like I said, grass is always greener. Give it 6 months and Bent will be ok but we should give Blackman a run. 

 

[brady1993]

8 minutes ago, McLovin said:

Yeah. I don't even consider the likes of Payet to be world class. For me, the only genuine world class players currently in the prem are De Gea, Lloris, Hazard, Ozil, Aguero, De Bruyne and maybe Diego Costa. If Kante continues his good form for the rest of the season for Chelsea then he will make it into the world class bracket for me

Yeah I'd agree with that, the only players I'd perhaps add to that list are Sanchez and Coutinho but this is probably a discussion (an interesting one) for a different thread.

[Warren Hobhead]

This thread has gone.

 

Hughes is quality. I would say he's a top end player at this level on his day but his lack of output and consistency stops him standing out. However he's 21. So I think he has the time to develop and the potential to play in the Premier League and who knows after that?

 

But world class? The best in 40 years? That is hilarious. 

 

Best at the club? I dunno. I think Ince, Butterfield, Johnson and Thorne are Premier League and much more effective on their best days. 

 

I love watching Will. He could be very special. But the hyperbole is hilarious. 

[eddie]

5 hours ago, bcnram said:

Who have you seen who is better? Eranio would be close but beyond that?

Charlie George, Roy McFarland, Archie Gemmill, Colin Todd, Bruse Rioch, Gerry Daly... hang on, I'll get a pen and at least a couple of sheets of paper

[Rev]

1 hour ago, McLovin said:

I didn't deny that buddy. I was just responding to the comment that Hughes is by far the best player at the club. Easy for me to say this now, but had Thorne played in that game, I very much doubt we would have lost 3-0. Shame we can't have just one full season with both of them in the team. 

Just the 2nd half of this season would be nice!

[bcnram]

21 minutes ago, eddie said:

Charlie George, Roy McFarland, Archie Gemmill, Colin Todd, Bruse Rioch, Gerry Daly... hang on, I'll get a pen and at least a couple of sheets of paper

Yeah, yeah, I agree totally, especially Charlie (eyes in his backside) George. But they were all longer than 40 years ago. + Kevin Hector, David Nish, Dave Mackay, etc. etc. I am surprised he missed out Taribo though.

I was only chipping back because he came over to me as a bit of a knob. Although he may say the same about me 

[Sith Happens]

3 hours ago, MuespachRam said:

Nowhere near...not even in the same universe as Hughes....

I know, maybe one day Hughes will be as good as thorne

[Sith Happens]

2 hours ago, Alpha said:

Hughes went on to be brilliant in the 2nd leg. The 1st leg was all Keogh hitting long diagonals. Was no use to anyone. You can't control midfield if you kick it over them.

Defensive midfield is the easiest position to play (was always mine!!). It has more options and less opposition than any other part of the pitch. If you have discipline and aren't a glory hunter then you can't do too badly. Thorne is very good but that position is there to dictate from. Even Bradley Johnson who's passing isn't the best is now dictating direction and tempo.

Hughes does exactly what you suggest he hasn't mastered. The right ball at the right time. He makes life easy. And he does this under far more pressure than Thorne and in attacking areas. 

Theres been games where Thorne has struggled to shake off the man the opposition have sat on him. He's essentially been marked out the game several times. Which isn't a problem with me because not every game is for everyone to shine. 

Hughes has performed at a consistently high level since breaking into the team. His arrival saw the end of Bryson and Hendrick chasing shadows. 

like I said, grass is always greener. Give it 6 months and Bent will be ok but we should give Blackman a run. 

 

Its a good job its so easy to play, that explains why we haven't had a problem filling that role when we have had injurys....oh.

[LeedsCityRam]

Bit surprised by the vitriol on this thread - suppose now we're winning games, we've got to find other things to get angry about!!

As for the young man himself, I think he's a class act both in terms of talent & temperament. I've not seen a better midfielder in this division, simply because I can't think of another midfielder at this level who has such intelligence, poise, technique & vision. He will play in the Premier League & I fully expect him to ultimately play for a top 6 club where exposure to a higher level & better quality opponents & colleagues will see him improve even further. He's too bright & hard working not to.

Its a bit pointless comparing him to other Derby players of yesteryear though, simply because he hasn't played at the top level yet. How can you compare him to internationals or Championship winning players? That said, I've enjoyed watching him more than any other Derby player in the last 15 years.

[Alph]

1 hour ago, Paul71 said:

Its a good job its so easy to play, that explains why we haven't had a problem filling that role when we have had injurys....oh.

That's because we haven't had a player who's disciplined enough. You don't have to be a great player to do that job to a high level. It's an important job in some systems. If you are a great player then you're suddenly in the position of having the most passing options out of anyone. 

The players that have played their for us and have had mixed to poor results have had poor discipline or what's happened is that the rest of the team had been unbalanced and then we're asking our DM's to be coming forward more. 

Hendrick was poor there because he has poor discipline. He's at his best when running free in the final third. 

Eustace played it well. Omar used to go off ball chasing on occasion. Hughes always wanted to go and get involved rather than back play up. Bryson too. And when both played there the problem was always that we were missing the best parts of their game.

It's the easiest position. But you still have to fit the role. 

[WoollyJumper]

On 11/30/2016 at 20:19, loughboroughRAM said:

Been a lot of talk about Hughes lately with some claiming that he doesn't score/assist enough to be worth the amount others claim he is. This got me thinking, of all the great midfielders who would I liken him to the most? My immediate reaction was that he could be likened to Iniesta and Xavi - two of the best CMs and also possibly one of the best CM partnerships of a generation when Barca were in their prime a few years back. This led me to look at their respective stats to see how they compare and it came as little surprise that they were hardly earth shattering;

                       G              A

Iniesta       1 in 11       1 in 7      (406 apps) https://www.statbunker.com/players/getPlayerStats?player_id=17798

Xavi            1 in 8        1 in 7      (428 apps) https://www.statbunker.com/players/getPlayerStats?player_id=4813

Hughes     1 in 19      1 in 8       (111 apps) https://www.whoscored.com/Players/108638/History/Will-Hughes

(All stats rounded up to nearest whole number)

Looking at these figures highlights that Hughes' contribution to Derby is not a million miles off Xavi and Iniesta when looking purely at goals and assists, and he is still a fair number of years off his peak which needs to be taken into consideration. Xavi and Iniesta have not only peaked, but they peaked as part of one of the best teams ever.

I can't imagine many people ever complained that those two didn't score or assist enough - so why do we? Just like Xavi and Iniesta, Will is integral to how we play and without him we are much worse off. Yeah it would be nice if he did score and assist more, but who cares? That will come as he develops, for now lets just appreciate his genius.

I think some people just like to complain.

[uttoxram75]

4 hours ago, eddie said:

Charlie George, Roy McFarland, Archie Gemmill, Colin Todd, Bruse Rioch, Gerry Daly... hang on, I'll get a pen and at least a couple of sheets of paper

Bruse Rioch? Surely you meant Bruise Rioch.

 

[i-Ram]

Neat and tidy player Will. Needs to play with better footballers to determine if he really 'has it'.  Hope he has a fantastic career because he seems to be a top lad.

[MuespachRam]

5 hours ago, Warren Hobhead said:

This thread has gone.

 

Hughes is quality. I would say he's a top end player at this level on his day but his lack of output and consistency stops him standing out. However he's 21. So I think he has the time to develop and the potential to play in the Premier League and who knows after that?

 

But world class? The best in 40 years? That is hilarious. 

 

Best at the club? I dunno. I think Ince, Butterfield, Johnson and Thorne are Premier League and much more effective on their best days. 

 

I love watching Will. He could be very special. But the hyperbole is hilarious. 

Ince....couldn't cut it in the top division. 

Butterfield.....isn't even close to being in the same class as Hughes 

johnson.....wow, just really wow...

thorne...couldn't get a place in a shocking west brom team..!

 

no one to touch Hughes and like I said here hasn't been for 40 years

[eddie]

13 hours ago, bcnram said:

Yeah, yeah, I agree totally, especially Charlie (eyes in his backside) George. But they were all longer than 40 years ago. + Kevin Hector, David Nish, Dave Mackay, etc. etc. I am surprised he missed out Taribo though.

I was only chipping back because he came over to me as a bit of a knob. Although he may say the same about me 

They were all still there 40 years ago - the Exodus hadn't started.

[Daz_The_Ram]

15 hours ago, MuespachRam said:

Not to dismiss your point but...ask Wes Brown to put his medals on the table...he played 300+ premier league games, won 5 titles, a couple of FA Cups, I am thinking a few Charity shields and 2 European cups.....and I wouldn't have put him in a team in the Derby Taveners league.

 

That is deliberately missing the point and you know it. 

I'll just refer everyone right now to what the MANAGER of the club made of Hughes' 'world class' contribution to our winner on Saturday. 

http://www.fcexclusive.com/derby-county-boss-thought-about-strangling-will-hughes-seconds/

I quote ...

'Steve McClaren admitted he thought about “strangling” Will Hughes only seconds before Derby County’s winning goal against Norwich City.'

“I thought we had lost the opportunity with Will (Hughes) when we had a three on two on the counter attack,” said McClaren.

“I was thinking about strangling him for it because it was a good opportunity on the break but the ball fell nicely for Bradley, who followed up and scored."

...
 

It can't just be me, can it?