James McClean - More Controversy

[Anon]

He didn't disrespect anything, he just didn't turn to face a flag and join in for an anthem. Stop trying to suggest he did something different from what he did.

Opposition players do nothing but stand there during the other sides' anthem, that is exactly what he did in this "controversy". If he refused to join in on an anthem for a country he played for that would be something different. 

The video has been posted in page 3 of this thread. He turns away on the commencement of the anthem.

[Mafiabob]

He lives in a country which should be tolerant of the individual and largely is.

Unfortunately, we also live in a country where someone can get death threats for suggesting that a woman ought to appear on the back of the new £20 note and where some people see uncritical deference to the flag and the fetishising of the armed forces to be the very duty of every individual resident. To the extent that any opposition to anything done in the name of the country is a callous act of betrayal rather than an expression of one's own principle.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but woe betide anyone whose opinion diverges from accepted norms.

and some opinion is purely based on what particular media outlet you read....

there is a herd mentality in this country when it comes to opinions etc.... Benefits muppets like the EDL etc.

 

Largely on the whole this discussion has been debated wisely and fairly without malice....

 

Like you say... The minority shout loudest whereas the majority roll there eyes....

[Scott129]

I'm actually really pleased that this has turned into a sensible debate, rather than two groups of people just name-callng each other.

It's an interestic topic, either way.

[JakartaRam]

If folks actually looked at the history of Britain, what we did in Ireland, what we did in Africa, what we did in Australia, what we did to the native Americans, what we continue to do in the ME, I'm surprised more people don't turn their back on the flag. Not to mention ignoring the national anthem, which isn't even an anthem for the nation, it's an anthem for a benefit scrounger who sits covered in gold and jewels, telling us we have to endure more austerity. 

Bizarre. 

Oh what a delight , agree entirely why some of the world still loves us I don't understand

[Albert]

The video has been posted in page 3 of this thread. He turns away on the commencement of the anthem.

...oh no, he turns towards the sideline. Easily the most horrifically offensive thing ever. 

I honestly find it hard to see what is offensive there. I guess the counter point though is that I find it odd to play a national anthem for a preseason friendly, or in fact, any club football match. 

[JakartaRam]

Australia and Indonesia's relationship is actually quite funny. Two great countries and people who get along great most of the time, but our governments love using eachother for bizarre political pandering around election time. 

Not sure why you'd bring up the death penalty here. Indonesia being hypocritical on such matters isn't exactly relevant to the situation. 

Again, McClean might face problems in other countries, but that is entirely not the point. What backwards characteristics other countries have (and again, that isn't saying that there exists a country that is completely without such) shouldn't be used as a benchmark for discussing such concerns in a country with a more modern view of such. 

Did anybody say you couldn't criticise? Did anyone say that nobody should criticise the criticism? 

Albert

Wasn't trying to make it a benchmark , just that the guy needs to be aware of his actions , not everywhere will accept the same and I expect many fans in the uk will not either

[Anon]

...oh no, he turns towards the sideline. Easily the most horrifically offensive thing ever. 

We're all debating whether is was/wasn't offensive.

You accused Harrowram of lying, but the evidence is in the thread

[Albert]

Albert

Wasn't trying to make it a benchmark , just that the guy needs to be aware of his actions , not everywhere will accept the same and I expect many fans in the uk will not either

Which comes across as a veiled threat. The simple point is that he's a UK national, who has done his protest the right way in what is quite an odd situation. 

There are countries in the world where it is still illegal to be gay, I wouldn't go around saying "they should be aware of their sexual orientation, some places don't take kindly to it". 

He's not just being purposefully obtuse, it's clearly something close to his heart, and that is very understandable in the circumstances. 

We're all debating whether is was/wasn't offensive.

You accused Harrowram of lying, but the evidence is in the thread

There is a difference between misrepresentation and lying. I still feel he was misrepresenting as previously stated, although I was in error in stating that he didn't turn, as he in fact turned back. If we recall what he said though you will carefully note that he never said anything about turning, but rather that he "disrespected" the national anthem, which I still feel is a misrepresentation. 

[JakartaRam]

Albert

Wasn't trying to make it a benchmark , just that the guy needs to be aware of his actions , not everywhere will accept the same and I expect many fans in the uk will not either

Hey maybe we can talk about the death penalty privately as an English guy I have no axe to grind just very interested in the Austrailan Indonesia relationship

[Albert]

Hey maybe we can talk about the death penalty privately as an English guy I have no axe to grind just very interested in the Austrailan Indonesia relationship

Rightyo. It's one of those odd things, both sides love a bit of political pandering here and there, though it sometimes goes a bit over the line (from both sides). In my experience though Australians and Indonesians have no issues with eachother. 

I have also had enough death penalty debates for a lifetime. They can generally be boiled down to whether or not people feel that killing someone is a valid punishment that a state has the right to give out, and that ultimately isn't something that will be resolved between conflicting sides in a discussion. There are rare cases that the discussion becomes about misconceptions about it's effectiveness as a deterrent, but those get equally circular and pointless. 

[TigerTedd]

Not got time to read the whole thread and feel I might have joined this argument a bit late. This may have already been covered, but this is a subject I'm quite passionate about, so here's my tuppence worth...

My Granddad died at the hands of the German's (he didn't really, he was crippled out of the war and died of some illness way before I was born, but this is an analogy). I'm a mediocre footballer and Bayern Munich offer me a lucrative offer. As part of the pre-match ritual, the entire team shows respect to the German flag.

I would join in this show of respect because a) let bygones be bygones, we live in a very different world today, and b) this is the flag of the people who pay my wages, of the fans who cheer my goals, that is worthy of respect.

If I had a major issue with this, I wouldn't play in the Bundesliga. If I had a major issue with Germany, and continued to play in the Bundesliga because Bayern Munich are paying me eleventy-million deutchmarks to play for them, then I would either keep my misgivings to myself and take the money, or I would make them known and fully expect to be denounced as a money-grubbing hypocrite.

I respect McClean for standing up for something he believes in. It would be very easy to simply respect the flag because that's what everyone else does. But he is a hypocritical ***** if he's happy to take money from his British (mostly) employers, and accept adoration from his British fans, yet can't even stand to look at the British flag. **** off back to Ireland you utter knob!!

It would be like Jamie Ward refusing to respect the Forest badge. What would be the point in him being there at all. It has to be understood that you've got to show professional respect and courtesy towards your current employers, and if you can't do that, you shouldn't be working there.

[ossieram]

Perhaps. But I'd imagine the fact that many of his innocent fellow countrymen were massacred would stick out more in his mind.

People always remember the worst.

And plenty that weren't innocent were also killed along with plenty of innocents massacred by his country men. Could you imagine the outrage if the England team were to turn their backs when we played Japan or Germany?

[TigerTedd]

And plenty that weren't innocent were also killed along with plenty of innocents massacred by his country men. Could you imagine the outrage if the England team were to turn their backs when we played Japan or Germany?

mind you, on that note, I wonder if a Jewish player would be vilified for turning their back on a German flag?

[AndyinLiverpool]

mind you, on that note, I wonder if a Jewish player would be vilified for turning their back on a German flag?

The German flag no longer has a swastika on it.

[TigerTedd]

The German flag no longer has a swastika on it.

of course. It's a genuine question though. It's alright me being dead against mcleans actions, but then me or my family hasn't been so deeply effected by the events of history. Nothing has happened in my life to make me feel great hate towards anything really, so I can't really say what I would and wouldn't do. 

But I'd like to think, if I was a Jew, for example, and I was finding it hard to forgive the Germans, (I know there's a lot of water under the bridge, but I'm sure it's the case for quite a few Jews), I probably would take a job in Germany. 

I can't possibly know what mcleans feelings about the situation are, but I think he's a bloody idiot for taking a job in a country he seems to have an ingrained, genetic hatred for. 

[Mafiabob]

For all those that criticise him taking a wage in England... Are you quite happy letting the government taking 45% tax off him to pay for services etc we may use?

[uttoxram75]

On one hand i fully respect McClean not recognising the flag because of the history of the British in Ireland, its not been a great 800 years or so has it?

On the other hand, why ply your trade here if it means that much to you?

As a great grandson of economic immigrants from Ireland i tend to have a bit of sympathy toward what should be our best friends and neighbours from these little islands of ours, yet i can't help but think he'd be happier playing in europe instead.

Perhaps not in the orange of Holland though......

[Highgate]

On the other hand, why ply your trade here if it means that much to you?

Because England is an very lucrative place in which to be a professional footballer as well as a good place to live in general.

I think its about time the human race evolved into not giving a s*** about flags....or the nation states they stand for. 

[uttoxram75]

Because England is an very lucrative place in which to be a professional footballer as well as a good place to live in general.

I think its about time the human race evolved into not giving a s*** about flags....or the nation states they stand for. 

We will continue to be brainwashed into believing that flags are more important than people. People who care about their fellow man are called do-gooders, lefties, sandal-wearers etc, while people who worship a flag are patriots, loyalists, etc.......the world according to Rupert Murdoch!

[Highgate]

Loyalty to any country is a mistake and a waste of time.  Nationality is just an accident of birth.  That's doesn't mean you shouldn't support the actions or inaction of any country..if you happen to think they are doing the right thing.