James McClean - More Controversy

[Albert]

2/3. His sporadic actions are not the actions of someone who is passionate about something. His selective actions and subsequent invited publicity are the actions of someone who is seeking attention for himself. I accept that coming from a family with an alleged history of terrorism and living in a Catholic ghetto may have stirred a hint of resentment.

4. But what is he protesting about? Ulster is beautifully peaceful, their are many Catholics in positions that they were not before, the people are wonderfully friendly and the country is somewhere that everyone should visit if they can. Or is he just seeking attention for himself 

2/3. How are they sporadic? When situations that he feels himself uncomfortable in appear, he abstains from them. Nice back handed racism, classism and anti-Irish sentiment there though. 

4. Nationalism and being forced to celebrate the very army that persecuted the Irish of the best part of a millennium? It's really not that complicated is it? 

[RLACML]

Just let him do what he wants, doesn't really affect anyone else but him to be honest. However not wearing the poppy is a bit ridiculous. 

As a Catholic, and with many Irish Catholics in my family, it really really isn't. 

[Highgate]

No of course not, if he lived across the border in the South then the army would be that of another nation. He lived in the UK (as he still does) so it was the army of his own country (which makes their actions pretty grotty to be honest). Up until about 10 years ago any citizen of Ulster could automatically claim Irish citizenship and go and live there if they chose to. As far as I am aware neither he nor his immediate family chose to do so.

You are quite 'hardcore' in your determination to deny people the right to their own identity.  A view which is out of step with the British Government's own position, which as a result of the Good Friday Agreement acknowledges the right of people in Northern Ireland to identify themselves as British, Irish, or both.  I don't know why you think that any citizen of Northern Ireland could only claim Irish citizenship prior to 10 years ago, as this is certainly still very much the case today. 

[SuperRams!!!]

As a Catholic, and with many Irish Catholics in my family, it really really isn't. 

Fair enough

[bcnram]

2/3. How are they sporadic? When situations that he feels himself uncomfortable in appear, he abstains from them. Nice back handed racism, classism and anti-Irish sentiment there though. 

4. Nationalism and being forced to celebrate the very army that persecuted the Irish of the best part of a millennium? It's really not that complicated is it? 

As far as I am aware he has done it twice only. Once with the Poppy thing when he fully publicised it and again recently when he was in a country where the flag thing is a big deal and he knew that he would get a reaction. He didn't do it when he played against England and as far as I am aware he has not done it elsewhere. 

Why on earth would you think it is racism and anti Irish? I am over there in the North or the ROI at least once a month. He would I am sure agree that the area of Londonderry that he was brought up in was a Catholic ghetto, it was not a nice area. I see the situation first hand and have done for many years. There is no problem apart from fools like him trying to resurrect them.

4. Now you are being a bit daft. They were playing the National Anthem (albeit more a personal anthem to the queen), nothing to do with celebrating an army. It was the British government that persecuted the Irish (and also your original inhabitants), and some might say that on that score we don't have a nice record, but my friend, that is just the way things were then. People move on, countries move on and it is time all these people with mock horror moved on.

ps. I am in Belfast and Lisburn Wed/Thur next week, shall I pass on your concerns? I think it would make them chuckle.

[Albert]

1. As far as I am aware he has done it twice only. Once with the Poppy thing when he fully publicised it and again recently when he was in a country where the flag thing is a big deal and he knew that he would get a reaction. He didn't do it when he played against England and as far as I am aware he has not done it elsewhere. 

2. Why on earth would you think it is racism and anti Irish? I am over there in the North or the ROI at least once a month. He would I am sure agree that the area of Londonderry that he was brought up in was a Catholic ghetto, it was not a nice area. I see the situation first hand and have done for many years. There is no problem apart from fools like him trying to resurrect them.

4. Now you are being a bit daft. They were playing the National Anthem (albeit more a personal anthem to the queen), nothing to do with celebrating an army. It was the British government that persecuted the Irish (and also your original inhabitants), and some might say that on that score we don't have a nice record, but my friend, that is just the way things were then. People move on, countries move on and it is time all these people with mock horror moved on.

ps. I am in Belfast and Lisburn Wed/Thur next week, shall I pass on your concerns? I think it would make them chuckle.

1. As far as you are aware. First you criticise him for publicising his actions, when it was the media that made a stink and asked him for comment, then you whinge that it's only happened "twice"? Really? Did it ever occur to you that he abstains from such as a matter of principle and it was only these couple of publicised times you heard about? 

As for "not against England", what do you even mean? He didn't sing the along while the anthem played, that's for sure, and what did you expect him to do? All he did during the flag nonsense was turned to face forward and bowed his head, exactly as many players do during national anthems. 

2. "I accept that coming from a family with an alleged history of terrorism and living in a Catholic ghetto may have stirred a hint of resentment." <- These are your words. You don't see the problem with that statement at all? Not even a little bit? 

4. Again, you wouldn't think that he might have a problem with it, and have the right to have a problem with it. It's not something he'd normally come up against, and may well have been taken aback a bit by it. Personally I feel he dealt with it very well. 

You can ask people to "move on", but the whole point of forgiveness is that it's earned, and to many that wounds are still very raw. It's not even as though it was that long past yet. You wouldn't ask those who's lives were ruined by WWII to simply "move on" even now, so why beyond your apparent disdain for the Irish would you expect the same here. 

[Pearl Ram]

Christ Almighty, even his boss has had word and reminded him how they do things where he is currently employed, is that not enough for anyone jumping to his defence ?

By all means have your principles but don't allow your self indulgence to affect other people in your workplace.

[Albert]

Christ Almighty, even his boss has had word and reminded him how they do things where he is currently employed, is that not enough for anyone jumping to his defence ?

By all means have your principles but don't allow your self indulgence to affect other people in your workplace.

To be blunt about it, if that's how they treat people standing by their principles, they can jam their workplace back up where their heads would have clearly gotten lost. 

I doubt that's what's happened though. I'd expect that this was all a bit of a misunderstanding to do with the nonsense going on before the friendly, and West Brom have had to back track and pay lip service as to not risk losing the hard right demographic. Who knows though...

[McRamFan]

He is entitled to want that if he wishes, anyone is...as long as they don't turn to violent acts to achieve it. 

Its all about violence, British Army opens fire on unarmed catholics because they are taking the provence by force, that is then repaid, wrongly, by bombings

The issue that James has is that the majority of Northern Irish folks disagree with him.

Prove it, the reason why we do not know that is that every government has refused to have a referrendum on it.  It the Sinn Fein and other republic parties could get organised things may change.

 

[bcnram]

1. As far as you are aware. First you criticise him for publicising his actions, when it was the media that made a stink and asked him for comment, then you whinge that it's only happened "twice"? Really? Did it ever occur to you that he abstains from such as a matter of principle and it was only these couple of publicised times you heard about? 

Come on!!! Even if he had done it quietly as a matter of conscience it would have been picked up by the press over here. The difference is that few would give a jot.

As for "not against England", what do you even mean? He didn't sing the along while the anthem played, that's for sure, and what did you expect him to do? All he did during the flag nonsense was turned to face forward and bowed his head, exactly as many players do during national anthems. You know this is not true, he faced away.

2. "I accept that coming from a family with an alleged history of terrorism and living in a Catholic ghetto may have stirred a hint of resentment." <- These are your words. You don't see the problem with that statement at all? Not even a little bit?  My, you are very serious, just typical English understatement that you clearly don't comprehend

4. Again, you wouldn't think that he might have a problem with it, and have the right to have a problem with it. It's not something he'd normally come up against, and may well have been taken aback a bit by it. Personally I feel he dealt with it very well. I disagree.

You can ask people to "move on", but the whole point of forgiveness is that it's earned, and to many that wounds are still very raw. It's not even as though it was that long past yet. You wouldn't ask those who's lives were ruined by WWII to simply "move on" even now, so why beyond your apparent disdain for the Irish would you expect the same here.  Blimey!! you are scraping the barrel here. Of course people move on, just as people move on from IRA bombings, al Queda bombings etc. Disdain for the Irish is laughable, about 80% of my earnings come from those beautiful people. xx

 

[Anon]

To be blunt about it, if that's how they treat people standing by their principles, they can jam their workplace back up where their heads would have clearly gotten lost.

Many places of work in the UK observe the minute's silence on remembrance day. Just out of interest, if you were working in one of those places, but disagreed with commemorating fallen British soldiers for political or ideological reasons, how would you handle the situation?

[Albert]

1. Come on!!! Even if he had done it quietly as a matter of conscience it would have been picked up by the press over here. The difference is that few would give a jot.

2. My, you are very serious, just typical English understatement that you clearly don't comprehend

3.  I disagree.

4. Blimey!! you are scraping the barrel here. Of course people move on, just as people move on from IRA bombings, al Queda bombings etc. Disdain for the Irish is laughable, about 80% of my earnings come from those beautiful people. xx

1. This just in, if it doesn't cause a stink in the press, it didn't happen. Are you seriously that ignorant? How many such instances do you think the media can actually spin? Him sitting there quietly during an anthem where he's not forced to face a flag in a position off to the side isn't exactly headline stuff. 

2. No, in my experience casual racism isn't "just typical English understatement". This is just a revisit of the usual "everybody says it" line. 

3. Top notch argument there. 

4. So what you're saying is that you'd be completely fine chanting a bit of 'Las Malvinas Son Argentinas' pregame someday? We could go full Godwin and ask if you'd be comfortable singing 'Das Lied der Deutschen' while saluting a Swastika, but most would get a bit touchy there.  

There's forgiveness, but some wounds take time, and you are not the judge and jury of when people should "be over it". Maybe you feel feel he's a bit touchy, but equally you're the one having a sook that he had a few extra degrees between him and a flag in some bizarre Americanised ritualistic flag worship ceremony. 

[Albert]

Many places of work in the UK observe the minute's silence on rememberance day. Just out of interest, if you were working in one of those places, but disagreed with commemorating fallen British soldiers for political or ideological reasons, how would you handle the situation?

I would do nothing. It's a minute silence, abstaining ultimately is the same thing as joining in. If you had asked me to wear a poppy in those circumstances on the other hand that's an entirely different matter.

It's worth noting that his concern isn't with remembrance day by the way, and he noted directly that he mourns the lives lost in the First and Second World War with everyone else. It's the poppy being repurposed to more modern wars (notably what happened in Ireland) that is his concern. 

Personally, I also feel it's an insult to demand people to wear anything just to reiterate that point, as it makes the gesture meaningless, but that's a different story altogether. 

[RLACML]

How can people claim with certainty that a silent gesture is attention seeking? It's an absolute nonsense that this is even a discussion. If you think it's attention seeking, ignore it.

[StaffsRam]

Prove it, the reason why we do not know that is that every government has refused to have a referrendum on it.  It the Sinn Fein and other republic parties could get organised things may change.

You know what they say about decisions and history - they're made by those that turn up. They had a referendum in '73 - the Nationalists decided to boycott it. Wouldn't have mattered though of course, the Pro-UK vote was 59% of the entire electorate.

Since 1998 the Northern Ireland Life and Times, in conjunction with Queen's University Belfast and the University of Ulster, have conducted an annual poll asking what Northern Ireland's long-term policy should be. Not one of those polls has ever returned a result for "reunify with the rest of Ireland" higher than 30%. "Remaining part of the UK" has never gone lower than 50%.

http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/

Further, Mori ran a poll in 2013 asking the question "If there was a referendum tomorrow, what would you vote for?";

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/tv/spotlight/survey.pdf

Belfast City, Greater Belfast, Down, Armagh, Tyrone/Fermanagh, Londonderry and Antrim all voted, overwhelmingly to remain part of the UK. The closest result was 55% UK/23% Ireland (Londonderry), the widest margin was 84% UK/13% Ireland (Antrim).

This result was consistent across all age groups, and even down to religious background, where more Catholics voted to remain as part of the UK than voted for reunifying with the rest of Ireland.

But hey, perhaps these were all wrong and you're right. 

[RLACML]

You know what they say about decisions and history - they're made by those that turn up. They had a referendum in '73 - the Nationalists decided to boycott it. Wouldn't have mattered though of course, the Pro-UK vote was 59% of the entire electorate.

Since 1998 the Northern Ireland Life and Times, in conjunction with Queen's University Belfast and the University of Ulster, have conducted an annual poll asking what Northern Ireland's long-term policy should be. Not one of those polls has ever returned a result for "reunify with the rest of Ireland" higher than 30%. "Remaining part of the UK" has never gone lower than 50%.

http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/

Further, Mori ran a poll in 2013 asking the question "If there was a referendum tomorrow, what would you vote for?";

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/tv/spotlight/survey.pdf

Belfast City, Greater Belfast, Down, Armagh, Tyrone/Fermanagh, Londonderry and Antrim all voted, overwhelmingly to remain part of the UK. The closest result was 55% UK/23% Ireland (Londonderry), the widest margin was 84% UK/13% Ireland (Antrim).

This result was consistent across all age groups, and even down to religious background, where more Catholics voted to remain as part of the UK than voted for reunifying with the rest of Ireland.

But hey, perhaps these were all wrong and you're right. 

This could all be right but it doesn't make what you said right. That is not James McClean's issue. 

[Albert]

This could all be right but it doesn't make what you said right. That is not James McClean's issue. 

I'm not even sure how polls of what people think in Northern Ireland is relevant here in the slightest. This isn't about whether Northern Ireland should be part of the UK, it's about whether McClean is right and has the right to stand by his beliefs. I'm not entirely sure how StaffsRam thinks it's relevant to the discussion. 

[StaffsRam]

This could all be right but it doesn't make what you said right. That is not James McClean's issue. 

What I said, being correct, or not, depends on the accuracy of the assertion that I responded to. 

In terms of the second response, well this is all a matter of public record, there's no "could be" about it.

[RLACML]

What I said, being correct, or not, depends on the accuracy of the assertion that I responded to. 

In terms of the second response, well this is all a matter of public record, there's no "could be" about it.

No, it doesn't. You said 'The issue that James has is that the majority of Northern Irish folks disagree with him'. This is a stand alone statement, not dependent on anything you were replying to. And it has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

[StringerBell]

This could all be right but it doesn't make what you said right. That is not James McClean's issue. 

It might not be the issue that prompted him to not face a flag, but you'd have thought it was an issue for him. Perhaps if StaffsRam had said 'another issue McLean has' that would be better? Or alternatively you could stop being anal.