bcnram Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 I would imagine the 1st team at home and 2nd team would be away? I would guess so which would limit any travelling support. Or they may play on Friday nights (but don't mention that to anyone on here or they may take that as decimating the league ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
needles Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 I think this debate has run its course, all the points have been made, some good ones with a bit of swearing, and some of dubious value made in a sanctimonious fashion. Be interesting to see if they get it through. I doubt it will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyinLiverpool Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 I think this debate has run its course, all the points have been made, some good ones with a bit of swearing, and some of dubious value made in a sanctimonious fashion. Be interesting to see if they get it through. I doubt it will happen. It's a fair cop. I look forward to seeing how the consultation on the report develops. I hope the content is not completely obscured by the B team stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoetheRam Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Can't understand BCN having a pop for use of emotive language. Football is a sport full of emotions. Without emotions it's nothing to me. Sure I could analyse the technical merits of a goal or a formation but all that stuff is boring. And that is what the FA seems to be missing. So what if it improves the England team (I seriously doubt it will) if the competitions that some of it's most historic clubs take part in are reduced to training sessions for the benefit of the Sky 4 clubs kids and the entertainment of subscribers to MUTV? It will create a situation where the most loyal supporters in football, the ones who trek from Portsmouth to Carlisle or Plymouth to Grimsby will end up watching games in a competition that is totally devalued and is utterly worthless. The amount of money in the upper echelons of English football is obscene and it's time some of it trickled down to grass roots level, it's time access to the best coaching possible is open to kids all across the country. Facilities, coaches, nutrition advice, everything could be paid for by the Premier League/the FA but I won't hold my breath - too busy asking footballing legends Danny Mills and Howard Wilkinson for advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Awful idea. If the FA want to sort out the problem with the national team then start with measures at the level well most internation players play ie the Premier League, don't start messing with the rest of the pyramid. I saw Greg Dyke on tv basically saying the Championship is sh!te and it is this sort of attitude that is ruining the game over here. The sooner that people in high places realise that the footballing world extends further than the Premier League and the national team the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 If the PL wanted to help the national side it has all the power to do that already The top teams aren't behind this idea to help England. Are Man City B going to bring in all these great English youngsters (that don't exist because of the awful football coached on parks) together to feed Man City's main team to feed England? Or are they doing it to increase their own power? I'm sure Dyke does have the backing of the top clubs. It's not improving tomorrow's footballers. It's channeling what there is to the top at the expense of the clubs lower down the pyramid. They already bent over clubs with their academy scheme. Now they want to make sure they find every last drop of talent. Are England really worth that price? Will it really improve them THAT much? Or is it much simpler and sending Scott Sinclair to play against Wycombe will transform him into a City superstar? They need to go deeper. Really back to basics. The whole idea makes me hate the national side. Makes me think 'fook them. Why should lower league football get trampled on for a World Cup' Typical FA/Premier League selfishness and arrogance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Just a suggestion that may be completely impossible, but if we really do need PL b-teams why don't they set them up abroad, perhaps in the Arabian gulf league. This would mean they would get the competitive football necessary, while growing the 'PL brand' at the same time, and would probably increase interest in the league locally, while also exposing young players to a different culture. Probably not possible due to fifa regs, but formal partnership agreements, if not b-teams, is an area we should explore. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 If the PL wanted to help the national side it has all the power to do that already The top teams aren't behind this idea to help England. Are Man City B going to bring in all these great English youngsters (that don't exist because of the awful football coached on parks) together to feed Man City's main team to feed England? Or are they doing it to increase their own power? I'm sure Dyke does have the backing of the top clubs. It's not improving tomorrow's footballers. It's channeling what there is to the top at the expense of the clubs lower down the pyramid. They already bent over clubs with their academy scheme. Now they want to make sure they find every last drop of talent. Are England really worth that price? Will it really improve them THAT much? Or is it much simpler and sending Scott Sinclair to play against Wycombe will transform him into a City superstar? They need to go deeper. Really back to basics. The whole idea makes me hate the national side. Makes me think 'fook them. Why should lower league football get trampled on for a World Cup' Typical FA/Premier League selfishness and arrogance There is no way that the Premier League will put the England national team in front of their own interests, its just not gonna happen and to be fair, we shouldn't expect it. Its like Amazon avoiding tax, they are bound to do so by their shareholders need for return on investment, its up to the ruling body (or government) to make the rules to stop that happening. We banned slavery and child labour because we felt it was morally right to do so and for the greater good of society. Market forces would bring both back if governments allowed it. Its the same with the Premier League, we can't trust them to do whats right for football in general. The FA should make the Premier League pay for all weather pitches and more facilities for kids to play football for fun. The England team would benefit more in the long run then all these convoluted plans. The top clubs would threaten to go and join a breakaway league, like darts and boxing, but so feckin what! English football is so popular because of the fans. The (mostly) full houses that generate the passion that SKY want to sell would soon turn to half empty stadiums if Tottenham had to play Benfica in a league game on a Monday night instead of a local derby vs West Ham. The FA should call their bluff, come up with a genuine plan that would improve the skill levels of English kids not the interests of half a dozen clubs who are desperate for Champions League qualification above all else. I'm nervous about Brighton, its making me ramble on about other ***** now. Is my post longer than Alpha's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnram Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 I have now become better at avoiding getting involved in this emotional claptrap. Read the report girls and boys, just read the report. Have a lovely rest of the weekend and hopefully we will take another step forward in getting into the Premier League that so many of you seem to despise. xxxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 It's not the league that's despised, it's the so called cream at the top, next on their wishlist will be the collective bargaining agreement for TV rights. They get their way on that and we might as well pack up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 B, or not to B? That is the question. I wonder, when the FA sat down to discuss the future of English football, if they actually talked to players who have experience of B team football abroad, where it apparently flourishes so. Because if they did, they’d discover that it is barely a glorified reserve team. During my four years playing in Denmark, I spent a year at Odense BK. At the time, they were title contenders with an impressive history of bringing through talent such as Thomas Helveg, Thomas Sorensen and Christian Eriksen and their “B team”, Odense II, played in the 2. Division Vest. This was the third tier of the Danish League behind Supaliga and 1. Division. The 2. Division was divided regionally into east (øst) and west (vest), and the B teams of Supaliga clubs were mixed in with the rest of the smaller third tier clubs. This level was as high as the B teams could go as rules stipulated there must be one division in between first and second teams. The problems that this rule created were twofold. Firstly, no matter how well the B team fared, those players could never experience the satisfaction of a promotion even if they won the league comfortably. And no matter what anyone says, that is the ultimate reward for a group of players. Without that meaningful carrot dangling in front of them, motivation is lowered and victories become devalued. That’s how I felt anyway. The B team was made up of a core of young 18-22 players, many of whom were still in full-time education or apprenticeships, plus first team squad players returning from injury, left out of the squad or in need of gaining match fitness. As one of these first team players who occasionally turned out for them, I never felt much of an affinity for a team I didn’t even train with. Playing reserve team football is essentially a selfish pursuit. The main purpose of playing with the second string isn’t necessarily to help the team win three points. As an older head, your main motivation is to play well enough to get back into the manager’s plans. As a young player, it’s about catching the eye of the first team coaches and proving to them you are ready for the next step up. What football outside of the first team does is make you more focused on your own personal performance and success, rather than the team’s. Which I think is only natural. My train of thought when playing for the first team was that the result was the only thing that mattered. My only concern when I played for the reserves was whether I played well or not and that I came through the game unscathed physically. Victory for the team wasn’t even secondary. The real truth of the matter was unless you were getting your fitness back after injury, the last place you wanted to be with the reserves. It almost felt like a punishment. The only stipulation allowing first team players to be included in the B team was that they didn’t make an appearance, from the beginning or from the bench, in the previous game. So it felt like a double whammy. The second problem arises when a team was relegated from the top flight. Imagine the scenario. You play in the B team and your side goes unbeaten to romp the league by a mile. But because your first team have had a dismal year and fail to beat the drop, that means the B team must be relegated too. And throw this into the scenario. What if your first team has a “Hyde” and are relegated ages before the season ends and you know that same fate awaits your B team? Won’t that effect the way you approach the remaining, fruitless games, which in turn will have consequences for others who are looking to go up or stay up in your division. My brain feels squeezed just thinking of all the negatives B teams will bring to our game. I could go on for hours denigrating the FA’s proposal but I’m not sure I have the strength. I only want to give one perspective of the many out there. I still believe the loan system, for all it’s faults, is the best way of giving young players the experience. It pitches them into teams who all have the same motivations and working towards the same goals. Not mixing them with players gingerly dipping their toe back into football after a lengthy injury or someone who has the hump because they’ve been left out of the first team squad. I’ve always stated that I developed more as a player in my two years with Darlington in League Two than I did in in any time in my career. Reserve/B team doesn’t prepare you for the pressure of first team football, at whatever level you play at. And it’s just as important to develop playing under those circumstances as it is to bring a player on technically as Greg Dyke seems so hell bent on doing. B team, reserves, development squad. It doesn’t matter how you phrase it. It’s all the same to me. And if B teams really are the way forward, why are countries abandoning them and reverting back to reserve team leagues as they have done in Denmark in recent years? In my eyes, their system of developing players such as Eriksen was more to do with the brilliance of their “Talentchef”, Uffe Pedersen than having a B team and that’s where the FA’s concentration should lie. Too many experienced players are lost to the game as coaches because there just aren’t enough jobs for them to continue making a living and they fall out of the game. It should also be noted that as a 16/17 year old, when Christian Eriksen joined in training with the first team, he would regularly embarrass players who were seasoned internationals and was coveted by clubs such as Barcelona and Chelsea before he eventually moved on to Ajax, yet he was never promoted from the youth set-up into the B team. More evidence to me of the lack of importance placed on a supposedly more competitive B team structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Jesper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animal is a Ram Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Just give the Prem a B league of their own, made up of 70% English players. Don't integrate it into the FL pyramid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnram Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Just give the Prem a B league of their own, made up of 70% English players. Don't integrate it into the FL pyramid. That is just the same as the U21 league :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 That is just the same as the U21 league :-) Excellent - sorted. Now that's settled, we can close the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnram Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Good post Cannable. The problems that this rule created were twofold. Firstly, no matter how well the B team fared, those players could never experience the satisfaction of a promotion even if they won the league comfortably. And no matter what anyone says, that is the ultimate reward for a group of players. Without that meaningful carrot dangling in front of them, motivation is lowered and victories become devalued. That’s how I felt anyway. The idea if you read the report is that there will be promotion and relegation - just not above league 1, giving them 4 divisions to bounce around in (1, 2, 3, & Conference). I don't think any young B team would compete at the top end of League 1.The B team was made up of a core of young 18-22 players, many of whom were still in full-time education or apprenticeships, plus first team squad players returning from injury, left out of the squad or in need of gaining match fitness. As one of these first team players who occasionally turned out for them, I never felt much of an affinity for a team I didn’t even train with. In the report it says that once a player has taken part in 10 first team games they will not be allowed to be part of the B team. You said yourself that you learned more playing in League 2 - that is just what they are looking to have available for the development squads (B teams). Whatever they decide in the end is not going to be perfect, but hopefully it will be better than doing nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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