Sufferingfool

Tame Millwall fan here. I have posted before, but not for a while. 
I enjoyed the game last night, mainly because you got it on, unlike Blackburn Rovers! Seriously though, as football fans, we all know the epicaricacy or 'schadenfreude' nature of the game's culture... and last night was a classic example. It was interesting and enjoyable to see a large crowd gather to get behind their city's only professional team so passionately, as their young and patched up side gallantly tries to overcome the huge obstacle of a 21 point deduction. I mean that by the way. I am not taking the Michael. This sense of spectacle was heightened by the fact that I was one of the 514 band of followers of perhaps the most unfashionable football club in England, managed by a disliked former Derby manager and containing some unpopular former 'Rams'. 
I think once the disappointment of losing what on paper looked like a winnable home match dissipates for you, you will be once again be filled with pride and no little hope - as Rooney and your players are doing an amazing job. I see some are already in that place. As others have pointed out, your young side came up against a very experienced and well-drilled defence last night. However, it must also be noted, that the reason we 'celebrated like we had won the league', is because we are going through our own injury crisis, and are also having to field a lot of young players, including a 15 year old! 
I also take issue with being called 'tin-pot'. Yes, we are a small club at Championship level, but I would not say we are tin-pot. I associate 'tin-pot' with clubs with no real character, history or romance. The sort of club whose fans sing the same old generic songs as everyone else - thankfully I have never heard a Millwall crowd sing a generic football chant like 'Everywhere We Go' or 'Easy' etc. etc. In fact, because of our strong sense of identity and character, I have only ever heard us sing very Millwall centric songs - NOLU, Let Em Come, Millwall to different tunes. 
Furthermore, Millwall have a rich and proud history - pioneers of professional football in London and the South no less. The only club able to challenge the dominance of the northern and midlands sides in the late Victorian era in football's oldest competition - the FA Cup. In fact, this is the reason Millwall are the only senior football club in English football to earn their nickname through footballing endeavour and achievement! Formerly the 'Dockers', Millwall were christened the 'Lions of the South' by the national press, after giving the likes of Aston Villa (the best club side of the Victorian era), Everton, Preston NE and yes, Derby County, bloody noses in the cup! 
Moreover, I was first taken to The Den by my granddad and uncle in 1985. By my maths, in the 37 seasons that have followed, Millwall and Derby County have played at the same level in 23 of them. That hardly suggests that going by endevours on the pitch, that Derby County are a vastly superior outfit. In fact that reflects rather poorly on Derby County, who represent a whole city and since Chesterfield have slipped out of the Football League, are the only representative for the whole of Derbyshire playing top level football. Whereas Millwall have to compete with some of the biggest clubs in world football in Arsenal, Chelsea, Tottenham Hotspur and West Ham United (spit) only a tube ride away, plus the likes of Crystal Palace and Charlton Athletic on our doorstep. I would argue that rather than being 'tin-pot', we are a very well-run club that gets the most out of its resources, allowing us to be a humble but proud second tier battler that no-one likes playing at The Den or in the cups. That may not be 'ambitious', but what's the alternative? Chase the dream like Derby County? 
That leads me on to Gary Rowett. Many Millwall fans are not enamoured with him either. You are correct, sometimes the football is painful. But needs must. Again, I take issue with it being 'typical' Millwall. From my time supporting the club Millwall have always been an aggressive and direct team yes, but in a positive way. That is to say, taking the game to the opposition, especially at The Den. However, Rowett is a dour pragmatic manager. That isn't Millwall, more like Charlton! But, times have changed, the Championship is full of big city clubs with regional level support like Derby County, Nottingham Forest, Sheffield United etc, all wanting to get into the promised land, as well as clubs like Bournemouth and Fulham, their pockets filled with the filthy lucre of parachute payments. Millwall currently need to keep their heads down and become more and more entrenched, like a tick in the Championship beast and hope we get a lucky season like Burnley or Huddersfield Town did, or even the jammiest of jammy clubs - Crystal Palace! 
Also, the club hierarchy are quite happy for a steady ship, as their main concern is this: https://www.millwallfc.co.uk/news/2020/february/millwall-reveal-plans-for-stadium-redevelopment/
The opportunity to develop land around The Den, which would allow us income streams to compete seriously for promotion. If and when it gets given the green light (Lewisham Council has already approved the adjoining Renewel development), then I would imagine Huski will fully takeover the club and maybe our ambitions will increase. Until then, it is all aboard the keep it steady Rowett Express! 
Okay, if you bothered to read all that, I will sign off by genuinely wishing you well... because as football fans of a grand old club like Derby County, you certainly do not deserve what you have been through! Even if you do not win this battle, I am positive you will bounce back stronger for it! Good luck. 

Disappointed but not surprised have been playing with the bare bones of a squad for too long and lost to a well organised tough team. Despite that we dominated the second half but missed Lawrence for his work rate and ability to create from nothing. Shame Sibley was shown to lack the physical presence and awareness to start a game, better coming on when teams are stretched and tired. Don’t understand this continued vitriol towards Rowett et al, we need to get over it. If affected what up to tonight has been such a positive atmosphere. As for the ref thought he had a decent game and let it flow, a couple of times the linesman should have flagged for fouls my only gripe. Time wasting all teams do it and all refs let it happen if we had been leading it would have been the same and applauded. First goal was poor defending why no wall? Second they got the luck of the bounce and really could have been 3 up by half time. We just need to move on it is not over yet and I saw no player out there not giving his all. COYR

Disappointed but not surprised have been playing with the bare bones of a squad for too long and lost to a well organised tough team. Despite that we dominated the second half but missed Lawrence for his work rate and ability to create from nothing. Shame Sibley was shown to lack the physical presence and awareness to start a game, better coming on when teams are stretched and tired. Don’t understand this continued vitriol towards Rowett et al, we need to get over it. If affected what up to tonight has been such a positive atmosphere. As for the ref thought he had a decent game and let it flow, a couple of times the linesman should have flagged for fouls my only gripe. Time wasting all teams do it and all refs let it happen if we had been leading it would have been the same and applauded. First goal was poor defending why no wall? Second they got the luck of the bounce and really could have been 3 up by half time. We just need to move on it is not over yet and I saw no player out there not giving his all. COYR

Disappointed but not surprised have been playing with the bare bones of a squad for too long and lost to a well organised tough team. Despite that we dominated the second half but missed Lawrence for his work rate and ability to create from nothing. Shame Sibley was shown to lack the physical presence and awareness to start a game, better coming on when teams are stretched and tired. Don’t understand this continued vitriol towards Rowett et al, we need to get over it. If affected what up to tonight has been such a positive atmosphere. As for the ref thought he had a decent game and let it flow, a couple of times the linesman should have flagged for fouls my only gripe. Time wasting all teams do it and all refs let it happen if we had been leading it would have been the same and applauded. First goal was poor defending why no wall? Second they got the luck of the bounce and really could have been 3 up by half time. We just need to move on it is not over yet and I saw no player out there not giving his all. COYR

What are them two up to then? Makes you think doesn’t it?

I’ll try and be brief without using one liners or being too controversial….don’t want to upset the apple cart further ?
My biggest bug bear is immediate and over the top reactions to players on their first few appearances and the subsequent questions / criticisms that arise a few games later about what they can’t do. It’s so typically ‘English’ and it’s so dated and archaic.
The easiest games a young player will ever play as a pro, are his first 2/3. He’s driven on adrenalin, enthusiasm, no fear and a complete lack of any kind of expectation from those watching. Everything he does is a bonus and his focus and eagerness to do the right thing and follow instructions overrides everything.
After that it only gets harder until you have played 60/70 games! Those next 30/40 are riddled with ups and downs and more and more public criticism than they’ve ever had in their lives and more than most slip away and never have a career. 
Im critical and I’ve seen the process many times, which is why I try not to fall into the ‘sweeping statements’ camp early on. 
My other bug bear is when there is no understanding of the players capabilities or their limitations and after the initial few appearances of doing the simple things….or the things they are capable of…people then criticise them for not doing things they’ve never done in the first place. A prime example being when people started to question if Thompson could score goals or if he had a shot on him…..
I think we have to be realistic and say that not one of them would have in normal circumstances have had their chance this early had it not been for the circumstances and probably realistic to say they wouldn’t have commanded a regular place at any other Championship side. However it’s probably also fair to say that in the short term none of them have looked out of place or been anything other than a credit to themselves or the club.
I include the lads early season that played Carabao Cup games in that too and in many of those cases they out performed some of their counterparts but were never given other opportunity's.

Realistically, Festy is the only one I’d consider a serious contender for selection each week with a fully fit squad. I have my reservations on Festy however and much depends on where he wants to end up playing. If he wants to be a full back, the skys the limit. He reminds me a lot of Reece James with a more devastating turn of pace. Defensively that’ll put him on the Ashley Cole category and I think he’ll play in the Prem. As a winger though I’m not so sure. I don’t think he has the technical ability to mix up his game and he doesn’t have the touch and awareness to play inside the wide areas like many wide attackers are asked to do. 
Plange is a player I highlighted as someone I liked early on this season. Before he scored regular goals in the 23s and long before he was anywhere near a 1st team picture. However I don’t see him as a no 9. He doesn’t have either the pace to really trouble top defenders in behind and he’s not proficient enough in the air to provide an alternative to that. He does have great technical ability though and I see him as an inside forward….a 7/10/11 playing in pockets.
My other observations may not be popular….
Cashin I’m not convinced is a Championship player. Saturday as I said will be the easiest game of his football life and Peterborough the kindest of opposition for any debut making Centre back. I think he’ll have a pro career but maybe not in the Championship. 
 
Liam Thompson did brilliantly for several games but if I’m honest the reaction was way over the top and we’re largely driven by the occasion - Bournemouth on live TV - and the result - a cracking win! Another example of the first few games being the easiest. When questions were asked of him and other teams put more pressure on him in possession he’s found it difficult. He still has lots of developing to do but there are lots of players that play his role and and I’m not sure what will set him apart from others….funnily enough it’s done him a favour being at Derby and how they play and in the championship. League 1 or 2 will have seen him swallowed whole.
Another factor largely driving fans perception of player performance, particularly on young players is the result! A 3-0 drubbing gives nowhere near the same perception of an individual performance as a hard earn 1-0 win….regardless of individual player input…as players like Brown, McDonald, Watson, Hutchinson found after the Carabao Cup loss to Sheff Utd.

When you explain your 'negative sounding' posts about certain players in the manner you have above, it becomes much easier to see where you're coming from and even, agree with your point of view. #COYR

See here's the problem. Objectivity is a door that swing both ways, except of course in your posts. I've had a quick catch up on the last 15 or so pages of this thread as I've not visited it much recently. Even before that, my overriding impression of you is that you struggle to find anything positive to say about anyone. Damning with feint praise seems to be as close as you ever get. Suffice to say, this quick review merely confirms what I thought in the first place and also that I'm far from alone in thinking as much.
Since a far greater level of sensitivity is clearly needed when addressing yourself than is evident in your observations on the many younger players you have so casually dismissed, I'll resist the urge to quote said comments and instead invite you to review them yourself. I'm sure if you do, you'll find your claims to objectivity and realism as risible as I do. You might also wish to consider how your comments might affect the mindset of the kids (and they are kids) when supposed supporters write them off before they've even got started in their careers, though I shan't be holding my breath on that score.
Suffice to say that an academy you clearly hold in such low regard is the sole reason the senior team has a hope in hell of remaining in the Championship, which one might be forgiven for thinking is a clear and unequivocal illustration of a total lack of... what's the word... oh yes, OBJECTIVITY. 

Spot on B4, they never really leave you completely. I lost my dad in 2020 but he still pops into my mind when I think of something that he may have found funny or annoying and even now, stuff happens and I think 'Dad would love to hear about this' and then I remember. The sadness gradually dims though and you're left smiling at the thought/memory. Only time can do that.

Sorry for off-topic, just couldn't let B4s thoughtful post pass without commenting. Good on ya mate ?

Yep before Arthur I thought the club was done for, nearly out of business down to div 3 and destined to stay there, crowds? What crowds? Then along came the King, Bobby, Phill, Gary, Big Rob, etc fantastic times seeing us rise back. Loving this season though such togetherness such pride COYR

Whoa!  You're having a mare!
You canter do horse puns when I spelled hoarse right!  Saddley, it'll make you look like a foal!
You thick c**t! 
 
 
*(That's "colt", in case you or the mods were wondering!)     

The Derwent defines Derby it always has and always will. Those majestic waters filled by rivers, brooks and streams as it carves it’s magnificent path through our beautiful shire. My great-&grandparents followed that river downstream from different parts of the county looking for work but found each other. The town grew as more and more people left estates like Haddon, Hardwick and Chatsworth to turn their hand to engineering.
The football team grew too. Those people who came down from the shire identifying with the County bit as much as the Derby bit, felt a natural draw to the fledgling club. Attendances grew but we had to wait a long time for a trophy.
Wait we did 62 years in fact before the FA Cup was raised high above post-war Wembley. 
But it’s never been about trophies, it’s been about community and those deep, gritstone embedded roots, anchored, immovable, in this county.
 
 
 

So much defines us. On a personal level every Sunday I zoom with my brother in Australia and mum in derby. What do we talk about? You guessed it..the rams. I have lived in Newcastle, Leeds and Manchester and nowhere has the local pride been as strong as in Derby. The small town punching above our weight? That’s us. The pride, history and tradition? That’s us. Very few things bring a lump to my throat but Jamie T reciting We are Derby before the match has me in bits. The history, the pain, the infrequent success that defines us but most of all the togetherness of this season shows the world what we are. I love you Derby. 

Lots of woe is me responses on this thread and perhaps understandably so. I'd like to think though that once we've overcome the obstacles at hand, that there'll be a very different vibe to the club. Hopefully we'll remember just how bad things have been and relish being out from under the EFL's grubby thumbs and a return to on-the-pitch concerns. There's been a fantastic sense of unity recently and our fans have been borderline rabid in their support which I've absolutely loved. Perhaps then it'll be our near future that defines us moving forwards not the woes of the past. To be fair, I think the players, coaches and the fans have plenty to be proud of right now.
COYR

Yep before Arthur I thought the club was done for, nearly out of business down to div 3 and destined to stay there, crowds? What crowds? Then along came the King, Bobby, Phill, Gary, Big Rob, etc fantastic times seeing us rise back. Loving this season though such togetherness such pride COYR

Yesterday there were several times come on Derby rolled round from the NE corner along the North stand. I usually go to diff parts of the ground and I don’t think those in the south stand realise how much singing is going on elsewhere it is fantastic at the moment. 
 
As for people leaving early far fewer at the moment thank goodness. Against B’ham there was some loudmouth behind me who veered from criticism to moaning constantly and left with his entourage on 85 minutes ?. Yesterday a few left early but not many. My Grandson said are we ever going to score and I told him to keep believing as most goals are scored in the final seconds and injury time….cue pandemonium what a season what a season ?

Yesterday there were several times come on Derby rolled round from the NE corner along the North stand. I usually go to diff parts of the ground and I don’t think those in the south stand realise how much singing is going on elsewhere it is fantastic at the moment. 
 
As for people leaving early far fewer at the moment thank goodness. Against B’ham there was some loudmouth behind me who veered from criticism to moaning constantly and left with his entourage on 85 minutes ?. Yesterday a few left early but not many. My Grandson said are we ever going to score and I told him to keep believing as most goals are scored in the final seconds and injury time….cue pandemonium what a season what a season ?

Yesterday there were several times come on Derby rolled round from the NE corner along the North stand. I usually go to diff parts of the ground and I don’t think those in the south stand realise how much singing is going on elsewhere it is fantastic at the moment. 
 
As for people leaving early far fewer at the moment thank goodness. Against B’ham there was some loudmouth behind me who veered from criticism to moaning constantly and left with his entourage on 85 minutes ?. Yesterday a few left early but not many. My Grandson said are we ever going to score and I told him to keep believing as most goals are scored in the final seconds and injury time….cue pandemonium what a season what a season ?

It's brilliant when you are in  a game when the ball simply won't go in, neither will it fall to a Derby player when it breaks loose or bounces in the penalty area, and we still win!
Yet another great performance, and apart from 10 minutes after Tom's red card when we went into shock and started playing too cautiously, we simply kept on going and going and going. It seems that Jason Knight's "Never Stop" attitude has rubbed off on the rest of the squad. I think Knighty was man of the match for me, because not only did he keep going non=stop till he was subbed, he affected the play really well. And he has built up a great understanding with Nathan Byrne, playing give-and-go into the corner 4 or 5 times in a row towards the end of the second half. Why Peterborough never picked up on it I don't know, and he got several crosses in as a result.
The ref didn't do too badly today, or perhaps it is better to describe him as not as bad as the usual rubbish we get. But he missed some glaringly obvious fouls. Coulson's two-footed lunge at Ebosele a few minutes before the sending off was a straight red. The ref saw it and waved play on, booking the guy a few minutes later. Festy did the right thing, going straight up the wing and skinned him, with there only being one result. Peterborough were so out of touch that time wasting and fouling became a major tactic, so well done Festy. And there is a delicious irony - the ref booked a Peterborough player for time wasting way before time added on at the end, which is almost unheard of, but even after an entire season of the refs letting opposition players time waste for almost the entire 90 minutes, Derby ended up with more bookings for tie wasting than Peterborough! He also missed the forearm smash on Tom Lawrence, and must have been trained by Mike Dean (ask Beilik!), but Tom was stupid for taking things into his own hands. His foul could have resulted in a really nasty injury. Unlike Crooks, Coulson will remember the incident for quite some time.
Once Tom went off Max Bird stepped up and took responsibility, driving the team forwards, and good old Louie Sibley. He made a big impact on the match, with a shot just wide within moments of him coming on, and was buzzing about all over the place. His willingness to run at the defence caused loads of problems, but I was sure his shot was going to drift wide, because it was that sort of match - as per my opening sentence, so to see the ball nestle into the inside netting was brilliant. And what a difference bringing him on into his best position. Who'd have thought that would work? !!!!! I can imagine, and hope, that he will get the next 3 games in the number 10 role. And apart from only being brought on with minutes to go and being played out of position almost every time, he hasn't really produced what he can do, apart from the few times he has actually been played in the middle. Rooney has actually said that he was holding Louie back from first team action in the same that he did with Max Bird last season. Well, let's see what he can do.
And Mr Cashin - wow, what a debut! He looked like he was the seasoned pro bringing years of experience to a young side. More so than Thompson, nothing fazed him. He just dealt with everything with aplomb and didn't put a foot wrong. not even a misplaced pass! We've got an absolute jewel there!
And the fans - apart from being shocked at Tom's red card for a few minutes, we were LOUD. I got home with cauliflower ears, like I'd been toa rock gig. And it was normal for the ground to be empty within 10 minutes of the final whistle. But not anymore. Walking outside the ground watching people wearing huge grins and singing their heads off is brilliant. It wasn't this good during Stevie Mac 1, and they were great times. I've been a Ram since the Brian Clough years, and this is the best time ever! THANK YOU, YOU RAMS!

Friday. 9th May 1986 was my 34th birthday and I was working in Saudi Arabia. Being a Friday, it was the weekend, and several of us were having a small party in my room. So I rang my brother and listened to Radio Derby for the last 15 minutes of the game relaying back the commentary to the other chaps. That call cost me £30 in charges!!
I'll tell you what a party we had on the home-made illicit booze to celebrate.
Let's hope I can celebrate this year on my 70th birthday, which will be two days after the last game of the season, against Cardiff City, which, I hope. will see the Rams remain in the Championship.
COYR's!!!

Except we played in blue & white.

Seriously... If we do pull this off, I think we should go overboard in all things celebration related.
We need to treat staying up like any other team treat a trophy win.
Party atmosphere at the last game.
Flags and banners galore.
Laps of honour.
Post match pitch invasions.
Directors box appearances from players and management (And new owner, if we have one by then!)
Hell, we can even take over the hire of the open top bus that our neighbours will be handing back unused!  (We can always hold up a cardboard cut-out of a "Minus 21" instead of a trophy!  Perhaps cover it in tin foil, to cunningly disguise the cardboard!  LMFAO!)
Yes we'll get called tin pot, but hey... Let's ride it!
As long as we treat the whole thing as a parody, we'll be rait!  One big piss take.  One massive two-fingered salute to all those that have had a dig, tried to hold us back, tried to destroy us, or who have revelled in their heartless and fact-free accusations.
Duck.  'Em.  All.
?

Yesterday there were several times come on Derby rolled round from the NE corner along the North stand. I usually go to diff parts of the ground and I don’t think those in the south stand realise how much singing is going on elsewhere it is fantastic at the moment. 
 
As for people leaving early far fewer at the moment thank goodness. Against B’ham there was some loudmouth behind me who veered from criticism to moaning constantly and left with his entourage on 85 minutes ?. Yesterday a few left early but not many. My Grandson said are we ever going to score and I told him to keep believing as most goals are scored in the final seconds and injury time….cue pandemonium what a season what a season ?

Yesterday there were several times come on Derby rolled round from the NE corner along the North stand. I usually go to diff parts of the ground and I don’t think those in the south stand realise how much singing is going on elsewhere it is fantastic at the moment. 
 
As for people leaving early far fewer at the moment thank goodness. Against B’ham there was some loudmouth behind me who veered from criticism to moaning constantly and left with his entourage on 85 minutes ?. Yesterday a few left early but not many. My Grandson said are we ever going to score and I told him to keep believing as most goals are scored in the final seconds and injury time….cue pandemonium what a season what a season ?

Yesterday there were several times come on Derby rolled round from the NE corner along the North stand. I usually go to diff parts of the ground and I don’t think those in the south stand realise how much singing is going on elsewhere it is fantastic at the moment. 
 
As for people leaving early far fewer at the moment thank goodness. Against B’ham there was some loudmouth behind me who veered from criticism to moaning constantly and left with his entourage on 85 minutes ?. Yesterday a few left early but not many. My Grandson said are we ever going to score and I told him to keep believing as most goals are scored in the final seconds and injury time….cue pandemonium what a season what a season ?