Ambitious

I saw some stuff that I haven’t typically seen from Paul Warne since he’s been at Derby, but would associate with him at Rotherham. 

The flat back four gave almost nothing away, Wildsmith a little erratic with some long range efforts but the defence gave nothing easy away and defended well at set pieces. 

Fornah showed there is definite a player in there, but still very raw. Football didn’t really stick at times and he looked like a midfield Osula. Still, ability is definitely there to see. Korey Smith tidy enough, but I think he has the lowest ceiling out of everyone in the team.

I don’t think Waghorn suited his role in the side, personally, I just think you play him centrally or don’t bother. You wouldn’t play Collins wide left so you shouldn’t Waghorn. Sibley didn’t really do enough, think it was evident that he’s still not quite up to speed fitness wise which is a shame. NML pick of the bunch from the attacking midfield three but all of them would’ve expected more of themselves.

Collins was excellent. Threw himself about, battled and scrapped - well deserved two goals.

Same issues still remain, we struggle to retain control of the ball and pace of the game. The back four really limited the Carlisle attack to anything decent but there’s just too much erratic play amongst the team, so desperate to get the ball forward that we’re playing so many hopeful balls. Fornah tried to play Collins and Waghorn in behind a couple of times, it’s just not their game, I have no doubts that he’s been asked to move the ball forward quickly (as are most of them) but it doesn’t half end up looking like a dog’s dinner more often than not. 

Still, the win today is exactly what I predicated: Leaning on an underfunded side, with a mixture of players massively out their depth and players trying their best to do 2/3 people’s jobs. Warne will continue to win games like this, for sure, and with a run at underfunded sides coming up then it should leave us in a decent position going into the winter period. I’d just love to see us adapt some control to our play - that was the first time this season that Carlisle had more of the ball than their opponents. I know it’s an elective by-product of how we play, but I don’t like it. I just feel like we’re leaving so much more out on the table in terms of performance. 

1 minute ago, Gerry Daly said:

Not to mention putting Nyambe straight into the team following Wilson's star performance on Tuesday. Sibley, whilst starting which is good, will of course be wide left

Nyambe played a couple of internationals and I think is generally quite a physically fit player anyway. Wilson and Barky are injury prone players who played really well the other night, but perhaps not ready for another 60 minutes. Both will come on, for sure. 

4 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

Embleton is injured according to the DET. Feel for Barkhuizen but he’s a good option from the bench. No idea what formation it’ll be with Collins and Waghorn starting.

Assuming Wags and Collins upfront, NML on the right and Sibs on the left in an attacking four. Smith and Fornah a two man midfield base. A flat, very defensive back four. 

Essentially get it in the opposition half and play from there. I don’t mind it. I don’t see us giving up too much space or allowing Carlisle to east counter opportunities set up like that, emphasis on the attacking four to be able to be able to create something but think it’s a simplistic system predicated on Sibley/NML pulling a few rabbits out of the hat. 

I don’t think it would take too much for me, I like him enough but just get frustrated at the lack of emphasis or thought on situational football. Even at our best, the game is largely a basketball match where the ball is all moving all over the place, the players are spread so far apart from each other and we are absolutely sitting ducks to counter attacks. At our worst, we just can’t control the pace of the game or take the sting out of it. Wildsmith is a god send at times as he’s clever enough to see when we need a break. The football is just played relentlessly, ball into space and a lot of shirts running after it. 

I’m happy for that to be part of our makeup but we need to start controlling games a lot better, suffocate teams and get them moving off the ball aside from us electing to do the running. 

I don’t think it would take too much for me, I like him enough but just get frustrated at the lack of emphasis or thought on situational football. Even at our best, the game is largely a basketball match where the ball is all moving all over the place, the players are spread so far apart from each other and we are absolutely sitting ducks to counter attacks. At our worst, we just can’t control the pace of the game or take the sting out of it. Wildsmith is a god send at times as he’s clever enough to see when we need a break. The football is just played relentlessly, ball into space and a lot of shirts running after it. 

I’m happy for that to be part of our makeup but we need to start controlling games a lot better, suffocate teams and get them moving off the ball aside from us electing to do the running. 

4 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

Sorry I don’t get that at all. IMO that would only apply if they were playing a team from two or three divisions below them. Even then, you can’t necessarily question their professional pride unless they weren’t bothered if they lost.

Carlisle have earned their place in league one. Yes, we were dumped into it due to a points deduction rather than performances and results but until/unless we start to p**** the league, I think it would dangerously arrogant to suggest the players should be ashamed of themselves (I interpret your comments as implying that) if they fail to beat teams like Carlisle.

Carlisle have earned their place with excellent coaching, as they were one of the favourites for relegation into non-league the season they got promoted. They’re an underfunded club and have he marginality in wages are going to be hugely significant - my point is, and always has been, to the club that they need to prove they’re worth that extra investment. The best paid manager in the league against probably the worst, yet we know how good of a coach the other guy is despite probably getting a fraction of a wage. 

Let’s start with the pros, as it’s only fair: He’s an intelligent tactician and theoretically astute. He can talk a good game, clearly has a good understanding of the game, feel even though he’s said previously he’s not a student of the game that he understands it very well. I see him as man-manager, emotionally intelligent, albeit not to everyone’s cup of tea (but who is). 

cons, for me, as a tactician he sees players on the pitch as pieces on a chest board rather than players looking to develop. He will help players gauge an understanding of the game, evidently he likes to make sure his players are aware and they obviously do their home work. I don’t see him as a technical coach, like McClaren and Cocu, more-so a fitness, psychological coach and that’s where he feels comfortable. It makes his quite stubborn, at times, we’ve all seen that with formations this season. I also feel that he has struggled with the size of the club and the weight of expectation, he’s almost played it off but incorrectly at times. Lastly, in contrast with the above, I believe he is incredibly aware tactically of what he wants to do and how to be successful - I’m just not quite sure he knows how to achieve it with the recruitment required. What he wants, how we recruited were at odds - clearly there was someone compensating so I won’t hammer him as ultimately it falls to the recruitment staff to find the very best players available to us. If he was dead set on three CBs then he needed to add speed and lateral quickness to the wide CBs but instead signed Nelson and Bradley. Doesn’t add up. 

Overall, 5/10, the club isn’t really better or worse off. We will get into the playoffs, I’m sure, but without significant improvement it’s a wasted ticket. Philosophically, he sees the game in a lot of ways different to me, but a lot of people do, but it’s the reason why I’m not right behind him currently - like I was McClaren and Cocu. 

2 hours ago, Jourdan said:

Tomorrow feels like a sliding doors kind of game.

If we win, you could see a pathway for us to start building momentum, stringing results together and moving up the table. The next 8-9 games present a real opportunity to improve our form and lift the mood.

However if we lose, the pressure once again cranks up on Warne, the players and the staff. I honestly think the fanbase is wavering to the point where 4-5 more bad or uneven results could be Warne’s undoing.

It’s a very difficult game. Carlisle will be fired up to play one of the biggest sides in the division and get a scalp.

Here’s hoping for a positive, logical, balanced line up and a professional performance. Warne needs a nice anniversary present from the players.

Wildsmith

Wilson - Nelson - Cashin - Forsyth

Smith - Fornah - Sibley

NML - Waghorn - Barkhuizen

No disrespect but we’re talking about a club with about the 5th of the turnover, a fraction of the wage bill so you’ve got to put in question our players professional pride with anything other than a win. 

The only sliding doors should the worst happen is Simpson for Warne in a straight swap. They’re a well run club, admittedly, they found a delivery driver in Scotland that is probably better than our midfielders who we pay a vast sum of our budget towards. 

These are usually the games we win, though, so I’m fairly confident it won’t come to that. 

18 minutes ago, De22Ram said:

Sorting out the que for beers would help, specially in the ss! People go down at 30-35mins and still the ques are a joke! 
 

I think its mainly what happens on the pitch tbh! When Derby attack, when mendez used to run down the wing doing step overs, a shot whizzes past the post or is saved the crowd get excited and you feel the buzz, the roar and the songs follow! Without that it falls flat!

Exactly this, unfortunately you can’t force an atmosphere - the best seasons at Pride Park have had circumstances surrounding it. 11 point season, 21 point deduction season and 13/14 where the team was flying. 

It seems that if we aren’t completely without expectation, being ducked by EFL/ownership or absolutely flying and smashing teams that it’s not going to be an outstanding atmosphere. As someone who has been to a lot of away games, it’s no different to any other team. It’s one of the better atmospheres in the country when all things are equal. Expectation weighs heavy on the club though. 

On 20/09/2023 at 17:47, Ghost of Clough said:

Wigan faced a 65% drop in wage budget from last season. This would be more like £6m, and most likely player wages only.

Their total wage bill when promoted in 21/22 was £13m, inclusive of bonuses.

I think £6m would probably be the wage budget for the entire club, perhaps? The Athletic stated purely first team budget and I believe even said it was less than £4m down from £17m in 22/23. 

I’ve just seen a recently released Athletic article that stated Wigan’s wage bill last season was around £17m - this season it’s been slashed to just £4m which is staggering. I know we are still none the wiser on ours, but I’d guess it’s above £10m probably closer to £12m. 

Highlights the disparity. 

We have plenty of options now, a squad more than capable of winning this league. Nyambe helps with the balance of the team. A flat back four suits all our centre backs, our left backs. It puts Wilson and Ward out. Wilson can play right back, but more of an attacker. Ward will probably be right wing now. 

Elder still not looking 100% so until he does then I’d go: Wildsmith. Nyambe, Nelson, Cashin, Forsyth. Ward, Bird/Hourihane, Fornah, Sibley, NML. Waghorn. 

A solid flat back four. Fornah and Bird at the base of midfield, as the ball players and then essentially four attackers in NML, Ward, Sibley and Waghorn. 4-2-4 with the ball. The flat back four stops and the base stops any counters which we have been disgustingly poor at dealing with since Warne came through the door. 

This is a good signing for those who want to play four at the back. Nyambe will want a pretty penny to be here and I’d imagine that this is a trial period for both of us - if he does well then we will pay his wages. If not, he’ll either move on or take lesser terms. 

He’s a defensive full back, more like Wisdom than Byrne, but has pace and stamina to run all day. He fits the back four perfectly, perhaps a back five/three but only at RCB. I see Ward being moved to a RW and Nyambe/Wilson at RB. The concerns I have is that Warne wants him to play at RWB - it’s not his game. He should help our defence but just depends on the shape we play. It helps Elder move into a move comfortable role at LB rather than LWB, same with Forsyth. 

Important role to add more balance to the side, albeit dependent on Warne not playing him further forward than he should. 

Honestly, I’d be off my f****** tits with excitement - albeit I know it’s by no means a nailed on success. 

I listened to the Mark O’Brien Undr The Cosh today and he pointed out that Clough was brilliant for him, but McClaren was a different level of coach and taught him so much (before binning him off). He’s an excellent coach, would give the fans what they want. 

Rosenior was in his first managerial job, whereby you could see a plan formulating albeit often slowly. He liked a structured team, passing into feet, testing the opposition defence’s concentration. We lacked a cutting edge but we used to suffocate teams and play with the ball. Warne came in with a different plan, whilst I could see the logic and him being successful at this level, we’ve surrendered so much to the point where we’ve lost so much of what made us good and not really gained too much on the other side. 

If you ask me in hindsight, it’s an absolute landslide who I would prefer between Warne and Rosenior - I want to see Derby play football, ultimately. I also find Warne infuriatingly naive. Game management is terrible - but it’s engrained in his philosophy of moving the ball quickly and not allowing the other team to settle. We just aren’t able to slow down the tempo and move it back and sideways when we need to, so everything is just erratic. I’m not a fan. I get the theory behind it, but there’s too many variables we can’t control. My biggest irritation from it all is that there isn’t an emphasis on player development and that’s why I would be willing to call an end to his management of this club if I was Clowes. It’s obviously his call, but if that’s my money on the table then I would want a better process in place for the first team squad.

42 minutes ago, TINMANTED said:

It's more a question of can we afford to keep him

Good question, if we don’t get promoted this season then we are looking at a missed £10m plus a natural drop off in attendances. It could be around £12-15m if we aren’t promoted this season, in which is the worst third tier in living memory, it suddenly becomes harder if Boro, Swansea and Wednesday come down.

I’d also add that you can see the inner workings of some managers that just haven’t had enough time or a difficult situation: Cocu was one of them. I don’t see that with Warne. He isn’t a manager that is coaching his game on development. You can see why he worked on a Steve Evans coaching staff for so many years. 

16 hours ago, DCFC1388 said:

Have we really even seen Warne's football here yet?

Last season he tried the 352 but with the squad he had & inuyries went to a 4231 before back to a 352 for the last set of games.

This season is similar, started 352 but injuries has meant back to a 4231.

We havent had the fast paced, high intensity & constant press that Warne openly states he wants. Maybe we will see it when players are back fit.

But as it stands I think we're just trying to do what we can with what we actually have fit.

Warne’s style is predicated on chaos - catching the opposition out of shape and moving the ball forward quickly. There isn’t much more to it. 

The reason we look so out of sorts at times is that there just isn’t a controlled progression to our play, it’s zero to a hundred. Individualised system. We beat bad teams, we struggle against organised teams. We lack simple game management, anyone who would slow the tempo is told essentially not to do it. They play to the manager’s beat. 

Warne hasn’t helped himself with recruitment. We haven’t signed players suited to percentage football, we’ve carried on signing technical players but we don’t play the ball to feet - they are categorically told to pass into space, not to feet. I get the feeling the players are a little disillusioned with how the club is run, both from coaching point of view and from the top down. How many of our out of contract players are going to want to stick around? Fans too are a little disillusioned. I don’t think the approach/mindset is much different to that under Mel Morris, but just run on a sustainable budget. 

It needs to be said that we are paying people footballers wages, £5-10k a week, whereas teams in this league pay about the same as what a good car salesmen earns - £1.5-2k a week. The disparity is massive. Not in pound and pence, maybe, but definitely in marginality. 

Don’t know how much rotation Lincoln will do, but I’d imagine 6/7 changes for them. I expect the following to start:

Vickers, Wilson, Nelson, Bradley, Elder, Fornah, Embleton, Sibley, Barkhuizen, John-Jules, Collins

Not sure what formation - 352, 442 or 433. I’m hoping we see some promise from JJ, Sibs and Wilson in particular. A good performance from Bradley would go a long way. 

1 hour ago, Terry Hennessy said:

I really don't get this wrist slashing. Yes it was a dour affair and atm we look like a mid table outfit. But hasn't 17 managers since 2007 shown you anything. Hire and fire doesn't work does it. We are still shopping in Poundland for players and that's where we're at. Sacking the current management team won't name the slightest bit of difference....

The shopping in Poundland comment doesn’t fit with the league we are in, because I’m 100% certain when the accounts are posted for this season we will be a million or two higher on wage budget than the closest to us and triple, perhaps even quadruple the league average. 

How many teams in this league could’ve paid the wages of Sonny Bradley who will be earning the best part of £1.5m over the length of his contract. 

10 minutes ago, TomTom92 said:

Regards the pay off I know compensation for Warne didn’t go against our business plan. But whether it goes against FFP is another question. 
 
Id be worried if DC can’t afford it. Get on the phone to some Arabs if that’s the case.

FFP isn’t applied in this league, we are also run very sustainably so ironically the money pocketed/saved from Bielik & Knight will probably go to paying him off. 

Either way, we aren’t talking about paying a Cocu or Rooney off who were on multiple millions a year. Warne and Co will be the highest paid back room staff in the league, but (as mentioned) it’s a tinpot league so not sure what their wages will effectively come to, probably £1.5-2m over the course of their contracts. You could even put them on gardening leave, continue to pay them, until another club come in for them so you don’t pay them up. 

I tried to watch the game yesterday but could only really dip in and out via RamsTV. 

The game, from what I saw, went as expected against Portsmouth, one of the better League One sides, it showed that there is a criminal lack of quality at this level. The football from both sides was laughable at times, with the odd moment of quality play thrown in.

I honestly think the standard that the club is playing at has never been weaker in almost 140 years and it’s so depressing that we aren’t able to rise above it. I do think we will make the top six, because of how disgusting the standard is, but the club isn’t heading in the right direction in any stretch of the imagination. If I’m Clowes, I would strongly consider the long-term of having Warne in charge and Thomas heading recruitment. Our budget means that anyone with half a brain cell could have us compete at this level, but when we don’t have the biggest wage bill in the league what does he believe the outcome will be? It’s not a ‘Warne out’ post overreaction but definitely food for thought because the processes currently employed by the club at all levels, in my opinion, doesn’t have the potential to have the success that Clowes wants (& needs) after his initial investment. 

Playing seven teams with dog and duck type budgets in our next nine games is probably going to mask some of our shortcomings (hopefully it does) but Clowes needs to consider the future of the club past a League One promotion - all things considered 90% of us on this forum could achieve that with the disparity of finances in the league! 

1 minute ago, Magicman said:

Rubbish. I sing the praises this season of Fozzy, Smith and Thomo. I just don't rate Elder or bradley 

Smith.. as in Korey Smith? You hammer a ton of players, not always incorrectly I’ll add, but him being one you like surprises me. He runs around doing the square root of nothing. At best he ticks away, but if we ever needed him to step up and win a game then we’d be waiting a long, long, long time. 

Two goals and 18 assists in the last ten seasons for a player who I wouldn’t even say is a defensive midfielder. 

Eventually, yes, but not in its current form. I think Clowes will struggle to fund a financial push to the Premier League, so there has to be an emphasis on working harder and smarter than every other club to even give ourselves a chance. I've seen enough to know that it isn't going to happen under Thomas, Warne and co. 

People point to Luton, but they did exactly that - they worked harder and smarter than everyone else to give them a chance. They lost good players along the way, but still managed to recruit well and replace them along the way. They lost Nathan Jones, replaced him with a much better manager to see the job through. They don't have a lot of money, but you can see their decision-making at every level is very considered. 

It's difficult to underestimate how difficult it is to take a team from League One and put them in the Premier League, but it can only be done by smart hiring and smart recruitment. Clubs take shape in the vision of their owner (unless a CEO is hired) and we're still learning how David Clowes' operates in football. I get the feeling that he's a little bit of a traditionalist in that he will focus on the academy, he has shown that much, but I get the feeling that everything will be quite safe under his ownership. If Warne was to go, he doesn't strike me as someone who would roll the dice on a Frank Lampard or Wayne Rooney (if it was their first job). I see us being run similarly to a Preston under his ownership, perhaps Bristol City.

58 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

One of the best Irish players as they lost 2-0 to France the other night, and awarded MotM tonight as they lost 2-1 to The Netherlands.

It's great for him, but not so much for Ireland. I'm sure they would prefer a player who can actually put the ball in the net or create something to be their MOTM rather than the high energy, plucky centre mid.