vonwright

Nathan Tyson always looked incredibly fast for Forest, but somehow not quite as quick for us.

On 10/08/2023 at 08:27, The Key Club King said:

Not sure why there is all this love for Cocu. Nice bloke certainly, but we were woeful that year, should have been relegated, and the squad was far better and built under far fewer restrictions than the following year. Other than 2007/08 it was the worst I have seen Derby in 40 years of following them. 

Yep. Agree. I though Cocu would be brilliant, and he just wasn't. Maybe his brand of football wasn't suited to the Championship. Maybe it isn't suited to any team that isn't Barcelona, or the equivalent of Barcelona in other leagues (he's not exactly tearing up trees with Vitesse).

Rooney achieved much more with far fewer resources, surrounded by utter chaos and with a huge points deduction hanging over the club. Yet some people still think Cocu was a better manager.

There's more to management than a nice suit and an urbane manner. 

Also, I'm not sure about all this 'He was undermined by having to play Rooney'. Rooney wasn't great but he wasn't exactly terrible. When played in midfield he had some good games alongside Bird, and was key to Bird's development. I'm not sure he deserved to start every game on merit but Cocu's problems didn't begin and end with Rooney. He was here a long time. It just didn't work.

50 minutes ago, angieram said:

A top flight footballer should probably have all three. Well, the greats certainly have, but there are many Premier League players who have made a career based on two.

We seem to be expecting the same of our players this season, but we're not going to get all three; or if we are we won't keep them for long! 

A good team probably needs a blend of footballing types. All hard work without instinct or intelligence won't get you very far.

Likewise, too many thinkers or flair players can be equally frustrating. 

So, how would you sum up the main attributes of any one of our current players? 

I'll start with Collins. He is Mr. Hard Worker personified. He has a bit of football intelligence with it, but his instinct to be in the right place or choose the right shot without thinking is lacking. 

Who would you pick out, and for what?

Please don't list the whole squad in one post, give somebody different a chance to contribute. 

Think Max Bird has all three. He's maybe missing some other things that might keep him from reaching the top level: elite-level athleticism, perhaps (which might look like a lack of hard work, but really isn't). 

1 hour ago, SSD said:

He seemed far too happy about a point gained and protecting the unbeaten run. 

Unbeaten runs are so over-rated. Wins are what matters. 

Better to win one and lose one than to draw two.

54 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

It's not knee-jerk stuff when the performances have been poor for a majority of the season so far.

There will be people saying 'don't overreact', 'it's just one game', 'needs more time' if (more likely when) we are still in this position in January. Or April. Or next January come to that.

I'd love things to come good, but the idea that doubts about Warne are 'knee-jerk' with all the evidence we now have are ridiculous.

15 minutes ago, Sufferingfool said:

Yep, a much better performance than any other at home but no luck in front of a packed goalmouth. The new guys in midfield and right back have added some defensive steel, but as we all know we lack something up front.

This is part of the problem for me. The new right back was signed as a last minute stopgap to replace Rooney, now Warne has figured out we have to play four at the back because he signed the wrong centre backs for the system he planned to play. In the meantime we spent summer signing not one but two right-sided wing backs. They have no obvious place in this new tactical set up.

Fornah was also last minute because it apparently wasn't clear to Warne during the summer that we needed more mobility and steel in midfield.

We didn't add any guile up front, because he didn't see that as a priority either. We signed Washington, who doesn't seem to fit in any system, and Waghorn (almost by accident). 

Its taken a year to hit on the right overall formation and our recruitment this summer was for something else entirely. 

3 minutes ago, Srg said:

First half wasn’t Warne’s fault, but I can’t explain waiting til the 70th minute watching the exact same performance as the first half before making a change.

Then he makes the change, and he puts Sibley wide when the entire problem has been the lack of any option or creativity through the middle making Cambridge’s life so easy. 

Baffling. 

We desperately need more creativity through the middle. We didn't have that much last season - and we had McGoldrick then. We have Sibley but I'm not sure he's the answer and Warne seems to think he definitely isn't he answer.

Think we've put all our eggs in the crossing basket, but we aren't that great at crossing and it does make us a bit predictable.

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Using your logic, you also need to include Villa's future internationals too: Abraham, Grealish and Mings.

From that squad the following have represented their country:
England - Abraham, Grealish, Mings
Scotland - McGinn, Hutton
Ireland - Hourihane, Whelan, Hogan
Wales - Taylor, Chester
Norway - Nyland
Iceland - Bjarnason
Croatia - Kalinic
Belgium - De Laet
Egypt - El Mohamady, El Ghazi
Ghana - Adomah
Ivory Coast - Kodja
Congo - Bolasie
Australia - Jedinak

From our squad only King, Ledley, Cole, Lawrence, Mount, Wilson and Keogh have so far represented their country at least 5 times.

Villa's squad was ridiculous by the end of the season. Incredible they only finished fifth (and from possibly-faulty memory there were times when they looked like they might miss the play-offs).

Think people are really harsh on Rooney. He was managing when everything was falling apart, squad stripped and no budget. He threw together a bunch of academy kids and no-one-wants-them loanees and got really impressive results. We finished with a much better record than the previous season and would have comfortably survived but for the huge points deduction. There was even a time where we thought we might do the impossible, before the number of matches caught up with a small and very young squad. 

Oh, and somehow Rooney kept a sense of calm and purpose despite all the off-pitch drama. 

I'll always remember him well. 

15 minutes ago, Topram said:

Gone back to Sunderland injured we’ve still got to pay part of his wage 

You'd hope we'd have some kind of insurance for this but... probably not. 

19 minutes ago, sage said:

It's ok to want a different manager (I'm in the he's on borrowed time camp) but also to fully support the team at games.

Those positions aren't mutually exclusive.

It's strange people can't see this. 

The 'Warne out' people think that getting rid of Warne will lead to more success for the club in the medium to long term than the alternative.

The 'Warne in' people think that sticking with Warne will lead to more success for the club in the medium to long term than the alternative. 

I imagine if both sets of people were suddenly granted the ability to see into the future - could see where we would be under Warne in another year or two, say - then they'd probably agree about the right course of action now.

We disagree over Warne because we disagree over whether he will be good or bad for the club going forward. We don't disagree on what we want: success, a thriving club, a return to better times. 

We all support the club, we all want the club to win. 

7 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

I guess Clowes didn't want a project? Water under the bridge an all, but I still don't get how there seems to have been no consideration to the type of football we'd see under Warne.

That's my take - all he really cared about was immediate (or near immediate) promotion, then worry about the long term once we were in the championship. (Maybe at that point selling the club to a richer, more ambitious owner.) Not necessarily the route I'd have preferred, but fine as far as it goes.

It does all depend on us actually getting promotion, though 

2 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Maybe you'll be lamenting Rosenoir leaving in another 2 years time.

Or wouldn't it be more helpful to start supporting your current manager which is within your sphere of influence 

Feel free to start that thread in two years if the evidence is there. 

Right now I'm responding to a thread about Rosenior's management skills, and in particular the unfair claim in the title. 

Not sure I've even mentioned Warne?

15 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Am sure he'll be more focused on his current manager and what he can do to support him achieve his goals this season, rather than some hand wringing voyeuristic approach which really will serve him no purpose, to an interim manager who left a year ago. 

I suspect clowes knows such wilful blindness isn't how good businessmen operate, even if you don't. 

3 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Do you think David Clowes will be watching 

I assume he will be aware, because I assume he's a good businessman who analyses, reflects on and is keen to learn from his major decisions.

Looks like another painful day for Hull fans with a painful away win at Stoke likely to take them to a painful fourth.

2 hours ago, Srg said:

So, we've gone from attracting over-priced, under-performing players which ultimately ended up with us in administration and relegation... to not having that. 

I get you want to bash Warne and the players he signed (now we are League 1 club), but being starry eyed and wistful over one of the worst periods in the club's history is ridiculous.

Do you think the players Rosenior signed are on much higher wages than the ones Warne has signed? Are Bradley, Ward, Elder and Washington much cheaper than, say, Hourihane, NML or McGoldrick?

Yes, some of our managers (with the encouragement of the former owner) has spent money on overpriced, underperforming players. But that's not the whole story of our recruitment, and arguably has nothing at all to do with Rosenior. I'd say he worked minor miracles with very little room for manoeuvre. 

Rosenior had to build a squad almost literally from nothing, working under as many (and probably many more) restrictions than Warne.

He was then given fewer than 10 league games to get these players working as a cohesive squad, playing a fairly technical brand of football. 

It wasn't like we lost every game. It wasn't like there weren't some very positive signs. 

I think it was way too soon to say his brand of football would have proven ineffective for us, given more time and probably more resource. 

13 hours ago, Rich3478 said:

Was going to say, he’s had a year! How many managers get that long. And people still want to say is not his team yet. 

I'm also quite interested, out of the many players he did bring in this summer, which ones epitomise the 'fast, pressing' game he apparently wants to play? Because it seems to me he brought in quite a lot of older, slower, not-especially-mobile players? And pretty much ignored our midfield (which was designed for passing, not pressing) until signing an unknown (Fornah) at the last minute? What about pressing from the front? Was Washington the magic forward who was going to unlock this bold new strategy? Or was it the 33-year-old Martyn Waghorn?

It's one thing saying we need more time to finish the job, but at the moment I can barely see what he's started. 

Just now, LincsRam said:

Poor game.

Put it behind us, go again next week.

COYR

How many times though? It's getting tiresome. 

2 hours ago, ramsbottom said:

Still erks me that Dawkins was so under utilised. Used to knit stuff together so well.

Such a good player, technically superb and great football intelligence. From memory tended to get put out wide when he should have been in the middle. 

16 minutes ago, ram59 said:

after a poor performance, he complains about the players aimlessly lumping the ball forward. 

I've also noticed this. We didn't do this much before he arrived. He's been here a fair while now. So what exactly is he telling them they should be doing? And is it something they can conceivably do? 

"I want you to play world-class long balls directly to the feet of forwards in space."

We could all say that. But it wouldn't make it possible!

Just now, vonwright said:

I though Cocu showed signs of what I expected, he just couldn't adapt to the players not having the level of technical skill his system required. So it ended up us keeping the ball in our own half with completely unthreatening passes until we inevitably made a mistake, threw a goal away, and had absolutely no way of scoring ourselves. 

(I think Cocu's plan was to wait until all our players magically became Barcelona-level technical footballers. Which surprisingly they never did.)

16 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

Bigger than Cocu himself?

I though Cocu showed signs of what I expected, he just couldn't adapt to the players not having the level of technical skill his system required. So it ended up us keeping the ball in our own half with completely unthreatening passes until we inevitably made a mistake, threw a goal away, and had absolutely no way of scoring ourselves. 

23 hours ago, Rammy03 said:

I thought te wierik was going to come in and be a dominant centre back, the leader of the defence and a strong figure in the team. We saw absolutely none of that. I thought Bradley would be the same but we haven't seen it yet. Still need to give him some time though.

Ha me too. Probably the biggest gap between expectation and reality I can remember. Although I had very high hopes for Joswiak, too, he wasn't quite as terrible/non existent.