Punching above our weight. What do you think would elevate us above mid table next season?

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

4 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

It seems most people are just using attendances as the main factor in club size.

That’s your opinion. But I think it doesn’t make much sense.

Derby aren’t a bigger club than Villarreal.

West Ham aren’t a bigger club than Liverpool.

The 5k difference in stadium attendances between clubs means so little in the grand scheme of things.

 

I've not looked much at them before but you've mentioned them a few times so looked. Only formed in 1920's started as a league club in Division 5 in the 40's, then spent the next 50 years between that league and Division 3.  six years in the second division and promoted but immediately relegated, them promoted for about 12 years then relegated and back up.  They have won a couple of intertoto cups which as we all now was a kickabout to qualify for an actual tournament .  I'm not getting the bigger club. Distinct whiff of Deportivo but without winning ought.

[Bris Vegas]

15 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

I've not looked much at them before but you've mentioned them a few times so looked. Only formed in 1920's started as a league club in Division 5 in the 40's, then spent the next 50 years between that league and Division 3.  six years in the second division and promoted but immediately relegated, them promoted for about 12 years then relegated and back up.  They have won a couple of intertoto cups which as we all now was a kickabout to qualify for an actual tournament .  I'm not getting the bigger club. Distinct whiff of Deportivo but without winning ought.

Their global reputation is far higher than Derby.

I’ve no doubt Derby were a big club once. But being a big club 50 years ago doesn’t mean we are one today.

Derby have been caught up and overtaken by once smaller clubs. We may have a richer history than Brighton, but a good chunk of our fans today weren’t even alive when Derby were winning trophies and today we have the same potential.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

4 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

Their global reputation is far higher than Derby.

I’ve no doubt Derby were a big club once. But being a big club 50 years ago doesn’t mean we are one today.

Derby have been caught up and overtaken by once smaller clubs. We may have a richer history than Brighton, but a good chunk of our fans today weren’t even alive when Derby were winning trophies and today we have the same potential.

Why is their global reputation far higher.? We have actually won trophies as well. We're not Real Madrid by any means but  their only domestic trophy was winning the 4th division.  We've never even dropped that low, they spent 40 years there.  I think i'm out of this one.  

[Bris Vegas]

2 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

Why is their global reputation far higher.? We have actually won trophies as well. We're not Real Madrid by any means but  their only domestic trophy was winning the 4th division.  We've never even dropped that low, they spent 40 years there.  I think i'm out of this one.  

Because your average football fan across the world has heard of Villarreal, and they haven’t heard of Derby County.

Villarreal have a name, not just from winning the Europa League, but because of the many international players they have had. 

Derby do not. When Derby won the old First Division, most players were domestic back then and news likely didn’t travel.

Villarreal have been apart of huge deals, renowned world stars.

Derby’s record signing was a second tier Englishman from Norwich before we beat that again with Vydra.

Our record signing barely got in Burnley’s side yet Villarreal had world cup winners in their squad.

Times have moved on. Famous players, the best of our generation and past 20 years, will have faced and lost against Villarreal. They wouldn’t have even heard of Derby County.

[Mucker1884]

7 hours ago, S8TY said:

Nothing to do with how you've faired over the years or how successful you've been...Leeds would get 30K plus in any division I'd say and so would Sheff Weds because they are big clubs big fan base and lots of tradition

 

A quick check* shows Wendies have just averaged c. 26,700 in The Championship.  
In 22/23, it was c. 25,600, admittedly in L1.

21/22 = c. 22,900 in L1
20/21 = N/A
19/20 = c. 23,700 in The Champs.

I then considered checking to see when they last averaged your "30k plus", but I feared that may waste a good chunk of my Bank Holiday Monday, and let's face it, I've already made a point with the above info.

 

*Stats taken from here...
https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/championship/attendances/2019-2020

 

 

[Crewton]

3 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

Because your average football fan across the world has heard of Villarreal, and they haven’t heard of Derby County.

Villarreal have a name, not just from winning the Europa League, but because of the many international players they have had. 

Derby do not. When Derby won the old First Division, most players were domestic back then and news likely didn’t travel.

Villarreal have been apart of huge deals, renowned world stars.

Derby’s record signing was a second tier Englishman from Norwich before we beat that again with Vydra.

Our record signing barely got in Burnley’s side yet Villarreal had world cup winners in their squad.

Times have moved on. Famous players, the best of our generation and past 20 years, will have faced and lost against Villarreal. They wouldn’t have even heard of Derby County.

Did you pluck that "fact" from a Which? survey?

I doubt that the average football fan could point to either Villarreal or Derby (or Nottingham for that matter) on a map of the world. "Heard of" is pretty meaningless when assessing relative "size" of football clubs. It's possible that over 1 Bn Chinese have heard of Birmingham City, Reading and West Brom because they've all had Chinese owners but that doesn't make any of them bigger than Derby County.

[Ghost of Clough]

9 minutes ago, Mucker1884 said:

A quick check* shows Wendies have just averaged c. 26,700 in The Championship.  
In 22/23, it was c. 25,600, admittedly in L1.

21/22 = c. 22,900 in L1
20/21 = N/A
19/20 = c. 23,700 in The Champs.

I then considered checking to see when they last averaged your "30k plus", but I feared that may waste a good chunk of my Bank Holiday Monday, and let's face it, I've already made a point with the above info.

 

*Stats taken from here...
https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/championship/attendances/2019-2020

 

 

90/91 = 30,628.

That was the first time of achieving that figure since 3 consecutive seasons above 30k in the 60s.

[Mucker1884]

Just now, Ghost of Clough said:

90/91 = 30,628.

That was the first time of achieving that figure since 3 consecutive seasons above 30k in the 60s.

 

I knew you wouldn't let me down mate.  Cheers.  😉👍

 

[Turk Thrust]

23 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

Just to be a pedant, the capacity is only 62,500 so they don't actually get 65,000. In fact, the average attendance has only exceeded 60,000 in one season since moving.

Average gate for last season was 62,438, And it was 62,462 22/23 just to be a pedant

[Tamworthram]

21 minutes ago, Turk Thrust said:

Average gate for last season was 62,438, And it was 62,462 22/23 just to be a pedant

Not according to Transfermkt.co.uk. It was “only” 59,512 last season.

Either way, it wasn’t 65,000 and never has been.

[superfit]

If a club is more successful it doesn’t mean it’s bigger, it means it’s more successful. 
 
If a club has more revenue it doesn’t mean it’s bigger, it means it’s richer. 
 

The true measure of a clubs size is the size of its fan base. 

[Carnero]

9 minutes ago, superfit said:

If a club is more successful it doesn’t mean it’s bigger, it means it’s more successful. 
 
If a club has more revenue it doesn’t mean it’s bigger, it means it’s richer. 
 

The true measure of a clubs size is the size of its fan base. 

Exactly. If there's 2 social clubs in my village, one has 30 members and the other has 300 members, which is the bigger social club?

[Turk Thrust]

13 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

Because your average football fan across the world has heard of Villarreal, and they haven’t heard of Derby County.

Villarreal have a name, not just from winning the Europa League, but because of the many international players they have had. 

Derby do not. When Derby won the old First Division, most players were domestic back then and news likely didn’t travel.

Villarreal have been apart of huge deals, renowned world stars.

Derby’s record signing was a second tier Englishman from Norwich before we beat that again with Vydra.

Our record signing barely got in Burnley’s side yet Villarreal had world cup winners in their squad.

Times have moved on. Famous players, the best of our generation and past 20 years, will have faced and lost against Villarreal. They wouldn’t have even heard of Derby County.

I work a lot in Nigeria, and have been a dozen times to Ghana. Absolutely football mad and know all English clubs including the mighty Rams but although they would know Barcelona and Real Madrid, I doubt very much if they know of Villarreal. Spanish football just isn’t a thing there. 

[Turk Thrust]

3 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

Not according to Transfermkt.co.uk. It was “only” 59,512 last season.

Either way, it wasn’t 65,000 and never has been.

Try looking at West Ham’s own website, and also Statista.    Also just looked  at Transfermkt site which states quite clearly that the average for last season of 62,438. Not sure what you’re looking at.  Also the current capacity is being increased by 5500 from 26/27 to bring it up to the Stadium’s maximum capacity of 68000

[Ghost of Clough]

41 minutes ago, Carnero said:

Exactly. If there's 2 social clubs in my village, one has 30 members and the other has 300 members, which is the bigger social club?

And for a football club, how can you give a reasonable judgement on 'size'?

One club could have 20,000 fans each attending 23 games. Another has 10,000 attending 23 games and 92,000 fans who each attend only one g⁶ame (average attendance of 14,000). What about fans watching on TV and not at the game?

How about social media followers? The overall trend is fairly good, but favours clubs who have been in the PL recently - QPR having 80k more Twitter followers than us, whilst Burnley have double ours, and Palace have more than triple.

 

The fairest way I can think of relates to revenue. There are a couple of anomalies, but on the whole not far off. Ignore broadcasting revenue, make a minor adjustment to sponsorship (due to increased TV exposure in the PL), and you see several groups forming:

1. Man City, Man Utd, Liverpool, Spurs, Chelsea, Arsenal

2. West Ham, Newcastle, Leeds

3. Leicester, Everton, Villa, Brighton

4. Wolves, Palace, Fulham, Southampton, Bristol, Norwich, Sunderland, Brentford, Stoke, Forest, Sheff Utd, Ipswich, Derby, Sheff Weds, Boro

5. Watford, Burnley, Cardiff, Plymouth, QPR, West Brom, Bolton, Swansea, Coventry, Blackburn

6. Birmingham, Hull, Bournemouth, Portsmouth, Millwall, Huddersfield, Reading

Edited May 27 by Ghost of Clough

[Tamworthram]

3 minutes ago, Turk Thrust said:

Try looking at West Ham’s own website, and also Statista.    Also just looked  at Transfermkt site which states quite clearly that the average for last season of 62,438. Not sure what you’re looking at.  Also the current capacity is being increased by 5500 from 26/27 to bring it up to the Stadium’s maximum capacity of 68000

As you’ve looked at Transfermkt then surely it’s pretty obvious what I was looking at as the figure I quoted (59,512) is there as clear as day for the season just finished. OK, I made a slight slip up and got the 1 and the 5 the wrong way around but I thought you might have spotted that minor and blatant error.  In my mind, as the season is now over that is “last season”. 62,438 is for the season before last.

I’m not sure why you’re arguing the toss (and quoting what the capacity is going to be in the future rather than what it is now) when I rather apologetically confessed to being a bit of a pedant with my original comment. 

In order to end this rather silly spat I’ll concede that their average attendance has exceeded 60,000 in two of their seasons rather than one. Perhaps you’ll concede that they have never had 65,000 turning up. (up until now).

[Bris Vegas]

52 minutes ago, Turk Thrust said:

I work a lot in Nigeria, and have been a dozen times to Ghana. Absolutely football mad and know all English clubs including the mighty Rams but although they would know Barcelona and Real Madrid, I doubt very much if they know of Villarreal. Spanish football just isn’t a thing there. 

Why wouldn’t they know of Villarreal? Chukwueze played for them and helped them reach the Champions League semi-final only a couple of years ago before moving to AC Milan.

Villarreal, Champions League semi-finalists, Europa League winners, international players, world cup stars, selling players for £30m million to AC Milan, Chelsea, Man Utd etc. not bigger than Derby? 

Come on now.

[Turk Thrust]

1 hour ago, Tamworthram said:

As you’ve looked at Transfermkt then surely it’s pretty obvious what I was looking at as the figure I quoted (59,512) is there as clear as day for the season just finished. OK, I made a slight slip up and got the 1 and the 5 the wrong way around but I thought you might have spotted that minor and blatant error.  In my mind, as the season is now over that is “last season”. 62,438 is for the season before last.

I’m not sure why you’re arguing the toss (and quoting what the capacity is going to be in the future rather than what it is now) when I rather apologetically confessed to being a bit of a pedant with my original comment. 

In order to end this rather silly spat I’ll concede that their average attendance has exceeded 60,000 in two of their seasons rather than one. Perhaps you’ll concede that they have never had 65,000 turning up. (up until now).

Give it a rest. This all started by me saying that West Ham had an average gate of about 65,000. And all the websites I’ve checked including your Transfermkt site (unless there’s another one) and West Ham’s site says 62,438 for 23/24. So I was 2500 out. Big deal. I suggest you try and get a life. Me, I’ve got better things to do like cutting my toe nails

[Tamworthram]

3 minutes ago, Turk Thrust said:

Give it a rest. This all started by me saying that West Ham had an average gate of about 65,000. And all the websites I’ve checked including your Transfermkt site (unless there’s another one) and West Ham’s site says 62,438 for 23/24. So I was 2500 out. Big deal. I suggest you try and get a life. Me, I’ve got better things to do like cutting my toe nails

Ooh, touched a nerve. I guess if you really did have better things to do you would have simply ignored my pedant comment.

Edited May 27 by Tamworthram

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

18 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

Because your average football fan across the world has heard of Villarreal, and they haven’t heard of Derby County.

Villarreal have a name, not just from winning the Europa League, but because of the many international players they have had. 

Derby do not. When Derby won the old First Division, most players were domestic back then and news likely didn’t travel.

Villarreal have been apart of huge deals, renowned world stars.

Derby’s record signing was a second tier Englishman from Norwich before we beat that again with Vydra.

Our record signing barely got in Burnley’s side yet Villarreal had world cup winners in their squad.

Times have moved on. Famous players, the best of our generation and past 20 years, will have faced and lost against Villarreal. They wouldn’t have even heard of Derby County.

Derby have broke the British transfer record on about 6 occasions . Three times in the 90's.  Winning the Europa league is the Papa Johns of European football.  Every  failure from every European competition plus the team that has the brightest underpants plays for it.Whatever way you cut, no one over the age of 25 will give a s*** about Villereal as they were a 3/4/5 division team for over 50 years.  There are a lot more people over 25 than not.