A Kind of Blue

[MadAmster]

How about... forget the blue card, simply make a yellow card a 10 minute sin bin punishment. The "wronged" team would be the ones who gain any benefit as opposed to some other team not having to face the offender a few weeks and more yellow cards later.

 

[Tamworthram]

23 minutes ago, MadAmster said:

How about... forget the blue card, simply make a yellow card a 10 minute sin bin punishment. The "wronged" team would be the ones who gain any benefit as opposed to some other team not having to face the offender a few weeks and more yellow cards later.

 

Because, IMO, 1) as already discussed a man in the sin bin might very well cause the team playing a man short to try and kill the game and slow it down until they are back up to strength. Heaven knows blatant (lawful and unlawful) time wasting is frustrating enough already without this added cause and 2) some offences may be worthy of a yellow card but ten minutes in the sin bin might be a bit harsh.

[BathRam72]

3 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

It does work in rugby but I think that is mainly because it’s much harder to slow the game down for ten minutes in order to kill time until your sin bin player is back on the pitch especially if your team isn’t in possession of the ball. Football is much more fluid in terms of possession and I think it would be much easier to deploy such tactics.
There is no real delay in line outs because they are taken from exactly where the officials say and you don’t have to mess around waiting for one of your players to become free to receive the ball. Also, there is no real equivalent of the goal keeper holding onto the ball and not being allowed to be challenged.

In rugby, when the full backs have the ball, they don’t generally have that long and will often punt the ball down field which, more often than not, turns possession over to the other team. In football, there would be much more passing the ball backwards and forwards between the defenders. Because you can only pass backwards, this is less likely to happen in rugby.

Also, in rugby, the actual game time is much more directly linked to the actual clock which is stopped under certain circumstances (e.g. an injury). The sim bin clock also stops. We all know, in football, time added on is much more arbitrary. We’d probably need a 5th official to keep time (with appropriate pauses) for sin bin times.

In short, I think the differences between rugby (and other sports to play more to the clock and where it’s harder to waste time legally) and football is too big to use it as a comparison in this respect.

With regard whether a yellow card is really a punishment or not, I think it is when, as you say, the player has to be a bit more cautious for the rest of the game especially defenders. 

I think the only time a sin bin would be an effective punishment is when there isn’t a great deal of time left and the team on the receiving end are having to chase the game.

We will see if it is a success if they trial it. Obviously the powers that be seem to think it will work/warranted 

[Tamworthram]

3 minutes ago, BathRam72 said:

We will see if it is a success if they trial it. Obviously the powers that be seem to think it will work/warranted 

Indeed although I'd say the powers that be think it MIGHT work, and is therefore worth testing, rather than WILL work. I think something is warranted but I'm not personally convinced this is a good answer.

[TimRam]

2 hours ago, Anag Ram said:

Football is becoming a video game.

Premiership already looks like one. Pitch, rows of fans, style of football for example. Add var and now this, the life is being sucked out of the game.

Edited February 9 by TimRam

[BaaLocks]

2 hours ago, Mucker1884 said:

Genuine question... Can you explain why the tech can't be utilised now, but could in your example?

 

Tech question aside, My thoughts are that it literally makes no difference.  We currently have the human eye checking videos/stills to see if player A is further forward than player B.  Your proposal still relies on the human eye checking videos/stills to determine whether there is an actual and complete gap/space/daylight between players A & B.

A 2mm gap in reality would be no easier to spot on screen than one being 2mm further forward than the other.

Not worse... but no improvement either.

 

 

EDIT:
Apologies... I now see @ram59 has already made the same point.  🍻
 

Because at the moment you have two sensors in a line, and a very close line (width of a finger nail) - see picture one, no technology is going to be smart enough and today the sensor might be onside but the finger nail is offside. If you then have sensors - for example in the front of the shirt, and your requirement is completely offside you are looking for a single individual to be further forward than any other player (or all but one, by the strict rules of offside). If the onus is on a player having to be offside, whereas now it is on them having to be onside, you introduce more 'forgiveness' to the rule - innocent till proven guilty and all that. The ref ultimately decides what 'clearly' means - for me it means there must be grass between the attacker and the defender if you draw a line across. It's not perfect, nothing is, but it is a much, much, much more accomodating interpretation than the one that exists today. You'll all thank me one day.

[bcnram]

8 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

Because at the moment you have two sensors in a line, and a very close line (width of a finger nail) - see picture one, no technology is going to be smart enough and today the sensor might be onside but the finger nail is offside. If you then have sensors - for example in the front of the shirt, and your requirement is completely offside you are looking for a single individual to be further forward than any other player (or all but one, by the strict rules of offside). If the onus is on a player having to be offside, whereas now it is on them having to be onside, you introduce more 'forgiveness' to the rule - innocent till proven guilty and all that. The ref ultimately decides what 'clearly' means - for me it means there must be grass between the attacker and the defender if you draw a line across. It's not perfect, nothing is, but it is a much, much, much more accomodating interpretation than the one that exists today. You'll all thank me one day.

Won't that give forwards with big buttocks an advantage? 🙂 

[ImARam2]

Would two 'Blue' cards = one 'Yellow' or a 'Red' Card.

And what happens if a player already has a 'Yellow' card and the next foul the player commits is only deemed as a 'Blue'?

[Mucker1884]

16 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

Because at the moment you have two sensors in a line, and a very close line (width of a finger nail) - see picture one, no technology is going to be smart enough and today the sensor might be onside but the finger nail is offside. If you then have sensors - for example in the front of the shirt, and your requirement is completely offside you are looking for a single individual to be further forward than any other player (or all but one, by the strict rules of offside). If the onus is on a player having to be offside, whereas now it is on them having to be onside, you introduce more 'forgiveness' to the rule - innocent till proven guilty and all that. The ref ultimately decides what 'clearly' means - for me it means there must be grass between the attacker and the defender if you draw a line across. It's not perfect, nothing is, but it is a much, much, much more accomodating interpretation than the one that exists today. You'll all thank me one day.

Thanks mate.  👍

All was going so well, until I noticed the angle of those lines.  Why on earth didn't they just draw them vertically/perpendicular to the bloody side lines!  🤣

[MadAmster]

3 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

Because, IMO, 1) as already discussed a man in the sin bin might very well cause the team playing a man short to try and kill the game and slow it down until they are back up to strength. Heaven knows blatant (lawful and unlawful) time wasting is frustrating enough already without this added cause and 2) some offences may be worthy of a yellow card but ten minutes in the sin bin might be a bit harsh.

With regard to 2) above, might the threat of 10 minutes in the bin see many offences no longer committed?

1) ? hammer them for time wasting by handing out more cards and the accompanying sin bin. We'd see much less "taking one for the team" and "professional fouls"

[BaaLocks]

1 hour ago, Mucker1884 said:

Thanks mate.  👍

All was going so well, until I noticed the angle of those lines.  Why on earth didn't they just draw them vertically/perpendicular to the bloody side lines!  🤣

You need to get some perspective 😉

[bcnram]

4 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

Because, IMO, 1) as already discussed a man in the sin bin might very well cause the team playing a man short to try and kill the game and slow it down until they are back up to strength. Heaven knows blatant (lawful and unlawful) time wasting is frustrating enough already without this added cause and 2) some offences may be worthy of a yellow card but ten minutes in the sin bin might be a bit harsh.

My own view is that a ten minute card will be a hiding place for inept referees not strong enough to control a game. 

[Chopper]

Think this, could have been an ok idea but with the issue with refereeing now I feel it would be reckless to implement it now and as a result it'll soon get dismissed as unworkable.

Why try something new when we are still getting VAR wrong?

As an earlier post suggested how does it relate to the other cards?

Can you really see the level of dissent being evenly applied? Man City v Luton. Player from Man City effs and jeffs and suggests the referee is the product of the union betwixt Steve Gibson and a Springer Spaniel and he'll get nothing. Luton player forgets his Ps and Qs and that's 10 minutes.

Mic up the refs, with VAR (seen and heard by all) and then have a punishment for it.

[eddielewis]

5 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

Because, IMO, 1) as already discussed a man in the sin bin might very well cause the team playing a man short to try and kill the game and slow it down until they are back up to strength. Heaven knows blatant (lawful and unlawful) time wasting is frustrating enough already without this added cause and 2) some offences may be worthy of a yellow card but ten minutes in the sin bin might be a bit harsh.

One thing which is quite odd in my eyes alongside all of the above points is that football is played to a clock that's continuous and time is added on to relieve stoppages. If a player was to receive a blue card when does the 10 minutes start? From exactly the moment the card is given or when the player has left the field? If it's the former a player who has been given the card could waste some of that time just complaining to the ref for a minute or so like we see when a player has received a contentious red. If it's the latter that's still more stoppage time to be added. God forbid how much time is wasted if these cards are reviewable by VAR!

Another aspect how does the sin bin end? As we see when a player leaves the field due to an cut to the head or needs treatment it's up to the referee's discretion of when that player returns to the field of play. If a players 10 minutes is up and the referee is refusing the player to come back on until the next break in play and it ends up in the opposition scoring that would cause huge controversy.

Edited February 9 by eddielewis

[Loughborough Ram]

How on God's green earth can we expect the current crop of inept buffoons to implement a new card correctly when they can even make the current rules work properly.

Putting aside the fact that the players are a bunch of mardy little cheats for the moment, referees are the ones who have chosen over the last couple of years to not automatically show a yellow card for a 'professional' foul. We see it all of the time a little pull here, a little trip there and the refs don't even speak to the players let alone yellow card them. They will probably argue that they would be showing 20 yellow cards a game if they did, but how does that explanation sit with the implementation of a new card.

I've always said "if you want a good rule ruining, ask a ref to implement it" and I stand by that. This is a stupid idea so God knows what a mess they'll make of it.

[Rev]

Make the blue card like a power play in Cricket. 

A team gets a blue card, they must keep at least 4 players in the opponents half until the punishment is over, the remaining players can't cross halfway.

[Tamworthram]

25 minutes ago, eddielewis said:

One thing which is quite odd in my eyes alongside all of the above points is that football is played to a clock that's continuous and time is added on to relieve stoppages. If a player was to receive a blue card when does the 10 minutes start? From exactly the moment the card is given or when the player has left the field? If it's the former a player who has been given the card could waste some of that time just complaining to the ref for a minute or so like we see when a player has received a contentious red. If it's the latter that's still more stoppage time to be added. God forbid how much time is wasted if these cards are reviewable by VAR!

Another aspect how does the sin bin end? As we see when a player leaves the field due to an cut to the head or needs treatment it's up to the referee's discretion of when that player returns to the field of play. If a players 10 minutes is up and the referee is refusing the player to come back on until the next break in play and it ends up in the opposition scoring that would cause huge controversy.

I would imagine the clock would start ticking as soon as the ref restarts the game I.e. not until the player has left the field. I reckon that would be the least of the challenges.

Regarding when it ends, that’s one of the points I was making when comparing it to rugby where if the clock is stopped because of an injury or a TMO review for example, the sin bin clock also stops. There is no such precise time keeping in football.

[eddielewis]

38 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

I would imagine the clock would start ticking as soon as the ref restarts the game I.e. not until the player has left the field. I reckon that would be the least of the challenges.

Regarding when it ends, that’s one of the points I was making when comparing it to rugby where if the clock is stopped because of an injury or a TMO review for example, the sin bin clock also stops. There is no such precise time keeping in football.

This is what is worrying that with this introduction of the Blue card it will eventually result in the match clock being stopped as a way of making it work. Largely the problems we have seen with discipline in (professional) football has been due to the lack of communication and discipline from referees and a obsession towards a sterilisation of the game fuelled in part by the gambling industry. These half baked ideas only add to the whinging stress that is putting people off the game in my view.

Referees are now hooked up to a constant group chat with 4 people in their ear whilst trying to keep up with athletes at full pace. It's so prone to more error than before and due to this referee's are constantly unsure of decisions and in the top leagues so reliant on VAR to make their minds up. You can see that some refs take more priority communicating to their assistants than the players. The biggest bug bare with VAR is why refs wait on hold with customer services trying to listen in to VAR for 2 or so minutes before they are then asked to view the monitor. Infuriating!

The talk we have not seen is why we need to 'clean' up the game and where this need has come from? I understood the need for goal line technology which has been a success. I understood the need for offside technology to some degree as long as the rule is clear but for everything else it's odd. I do question if there is a connection between the need to 'clean' up the game with the rise in specific betting markets in football.

Edited February 9 by eddielewis

[TimRam]

What if there are 5 minutes to go and player gets a blue card? Does he stay in the sin bin while everyone goes home and then only released once 5 minutes have gone in the next game? Be a rush to get where it's being played! 🤣

[Day]

I have an idea. Hear me out.

Each league has its own dissent table. Use the blue card, however it has no impact on the game, simple adds +1 next to their name.

At the end of the season, whoever is top of the table, must pay a fine equivalent to points they occur.

10 points, 10 weeks fine.

All money goes to grassroots football pot where refs get abused on the daily, reward refs down there, give them a reason to get out of bed and referee a game and use the money to educate from a young age to respect the ref.

You could also use the blue card for tactical fouls, separate table, 1 point per foul. End of the season pay 50% of your wages as above. Equivalent to the game weeks.

All money goes to help young players that had to retire early through injury having dedicated their younger lives to the game.

This would require FA/PFA approval and in their player registration contract. 

Solid idea right? I know what you’re all thinking, I’m wasted here right. Look it is what it is.