Alph Posted January 27 Author Share Posted January 27 I've seen a lot of anger that the ICJ haven't ordered a ceasefire but while Hamas threaten Israel and hold hostages then they couldn't do much more. But the facts are that Israel's conduct is wrong in the eyes of the UN, Amnesty Int, WHO, Save The Children, Doctors Without Borders, Red Cross, International Court of Justice among many other human rights organisations. No more "collateral damage" and "war is ugly". The ICJ dealt a killer blow to that narrative. The leaders of democracy, justice and freedom will now explain to you why you shouldn't listen to the laws that we all agreed would protect humanity. Highgate 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted January 27 Author Share Posted January 27 Ah, of course Israel's response is to accuse the ICJ of being Antisemitic. The ICJ didn't stand for Jews during the Holocaust according to Ben Gvir. That is true. It didn't exist. Netenyahu said they'll continue to obey international law. Well, it's been decided that it's entirely plausible that Israel are committing genocide. In fact the court provided direct quotes and evidence to illustrate why they won't dismiss the case. So "continue" might be tricky. What's even trickier is continuing this war under the rulings. There is no wriggle room for killing, harming or even effecting Palestinians. So it's Hamas targets and Hamas targets only. Which you will then have to prove. "Hague Shmague" says Ben Gvir. The question is, what would Israel have to do before the apologists just stop? Where's the line? Instead of claiming everyone else is unreasonable, extreme or racist etc it would be good to just get a simple answer. What has to happen to Palestinians before Israel has gone beyond self defence? A typical response played out when Zarah Sultana asked the question last week. Either refuse to engage in such pettiness or attack the person. Never get answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Interesting results on the current yougov survey. Wonder if this will get reported, feels like quite the majority Alph 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 57 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said: Interesting results on the current yougov survey. Wonder if this will get reported, feels like quite the majority I have tried to find the survey to see how many people had voted but couldn’t find it. My suspicion is that such surveys are not necessary representative as the silent majority probably far outweigh the minority that have an opinion they can be bothered to, or want to, share. Having said that, I’m surprised those in favour is as low as 74% given not many of us really know anything like the full facts and are even less likely to be able to think of an alternative (let alone better) solution. Alph 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted January 31 Author Share Posted January 31 (edited) While I can't see any negatives for Palestinians from this earth shattering insight from David Cameron I do believe it's a hollow gesture. Protecting their image. There are many states that already recognise Palestine. And while the UK halts funding to UNWRA over the allegations of 12 of it's people. It continues to cheer on Israel. What Cameron says has no weight. The terms will ultimately be dictated to Palestinians by their enemies? Again. Now I'm not a fully signed up member of Hamas yet and I thought I made that clear 50 pages ago. So on the flipside here you're walking the tricky tightrope of graciously giving Palestinians the rights of self determination and trusting them not to determine to attack Israel. Which will be extremely likely if Israel don't make concessions. Still likely even if they do, as some Palestinians see the entirety of Israel as illegal occupation. The best we are hoping for is de-escalation. So Cameron suggesting a Palestinian State can exist working around the Israeli government under conditions determined by the likes of Britain is a pipe dream. It's pleading to voters. Hamas and Zionists won't respect that. America wouldn't respect that! Who knows how you find the balance between national security for Israel and giving the Palestinians the freedoms we enjoy? Not David Cameron and Co. A true positive step would be to defy America and call for a ceasefire. To open lines of communication with Hamas, Fatah, Netenyahu etc. To stop providing Israel with weapons. Don't undermine South Africa. Don't say it's self defence. You know, just stop gaslighting peace protesters. Edited January 31 by Alph Highgate 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 45 minutes ago, Tamworthram said: I have tried to find the survey to see how many people had voted but couldn’t find it. My suspicion is that such surveys are not necessary representative as the silent majority probably far outweigh the minority that have an opinion they can be bothered to, or want to, share. Having said that, I’m surprised those in favour is as low as 74% given not many of us really know anything like the full facts and are even less likely to be able to think of an alternative (let alone better) solution. It was the email that yougov send out to all those registered for surveys with a kind of "question of the day", which I assume they use to try and gauge the general public mood on whatever batshit crazy thing is going on in the news. So in theory it should be a reasonable cross-section as the sample is large and wide I find it interesting to look at the results as they do tend to match what I *think* is going on in the heads of most sane people, as opposed to what culture war stuff the media are trying to stoke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 30 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said: It was the email that yougov send out to all those registered for surveys with a kind of "question of the day", which I assume they use to try and gauge the general public mood on whatever batshit crazy thing is going on in the news. So in theory it should be a reasonable cross-section as the sample is large and wide I find it interesting to look at the results as they do tend to match what I *think* is going on in the heads of most sane people, as opposed to what culture war stuff the media are trying to stoke It’s only represents the views of those that have registered for the surveys and then have replied to this specific survey. So, not necessary a fair representation of the general public. As I said though, I reckon (based on zero research - just my gut feeling) 74% is probably lower than the true feelings of the whole population. I reckon most of the UK population don’t see the removal of the state of Israel as a remotely realistic option so that surely just leaves either an independent Palestinian state or the continuation Israeli occupation of the region. I think most people don’t see the latter as an option that will bring anything close to lasting peace in the area. Just my personal thoughts. Alph 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 From the BBC: More than 800 serving officials in the US and Europe have signed a statement warning that their own governments' policies on the Israel-Gaza war could amount to "grave violations of international law". The "transatlantic statement", a copy of which was passed to the BBC, says their administrations risk being complicit in "one of the worst human catastrophes of this century" but that their expert advice has been sidelined. It is the latest sign of significant levels of dissent within the governments of some of Israel's key Western allies. One signatory to the statement, a US government official with more than 25 years' national security experience, told the BBC of the "continued dismissal" of their concerns. "The voices of those who understand the region and the dynamics were not listened to," said the official. Full story: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-68177357 Alph, uttoxram75, Highgate and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted February 5 Author Share Posted February 5 America desperately pursuing another war. Imagine. Must be near election time or they're trying to draw attention away from something. Self defence innit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 6 hours ago, Alph said: America desperately pursuing another war. Imagine. Must be near election time or they're trying to draw attention away from something. Self defence innit It seems though that Biden's blatant pro Israel bias might hurt him in the upcoming election. Not that the other option will be any better for the Palestinians mind.... You'd have to wonder what the situation in Israel/Palestine would be now, if the US had been an honest unbiased influence throughout the decades rather than always staunchly pro Israel, and blocking whatever the UN was trying to accomplish in the region. The sad truth is, even as many of the younger generation in the US are now questioning the US's automatic reflexive support for Israel against the Palestinians, both of their next Presidential candidates are among the most pro-Israeli presidents there has ever been in the White House. Alph 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 6 hours ago, Alph said: America desperately pursuing another war. So are we. We're in this up to our necks. When I say 'we', what I actually mean is this absolute disgrace of a government. Alph, Premier ram and Eddie 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anag Ram Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 2 minutes ago, Comrade 86 said: So are we. We're in this up to our necks. When I say 'we', what I actually mean is this absolute disgrace of a government. TBF we only have a few out of date party poppers to fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 7 hours ago, Highgate said: It seems though that Biden's blatant pro Israel bias might hurt him in the upcoming election. Not that the other option will be any better for the Palestinians mind.... You'd have to wonder what the situation in Israel/Palestine would be now, if the US had been an honest unbiased influence throughout the decades rather than always staunchly pro Israel, and blocking whatever the UN was trying to accomplish in the region. The sad truth is, even as many of the younger generation in the US are now questioning the US's automatic reflexive support for Israel against the Palestinians, both of their next Presidential candidates are among the most pro-Israeli presidents there has ever been in the White House. All the main parties in western countries are pro Israel. Oil, gas and trade through the red sea is the reason and always has been. The Empire never really stopped when it comes to money and commerce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramit Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 Don't know whether to laugh or cry. It's one hurdle after another because Israel's word and action is taken as truth and time and time again the Palestinian effort must prove them liars while they move onto the next lie All the while they kill and destroy. From 40 beheaded babies through "baseless and meritless genocide case" to 12 UNWRA agents helped Hamas so we must stop funding. The goalposts are always moved. They lie all the time. Yet Palestinians can't even give their casualty figures without "Hamas ran health ministry isn't it?". I mean, Hamas are quite honest! It's an exhausting, relentless battle against cover ups and feigned ignorance Putin is coming for us, Houthi Rebels are driving up the cost of living, Iran need to de-escalate, Hezbollah are attacking USA, conscription needed to save Europe, British houses for British people, asking a Muslim MP to stop apologising for Hamas/tell Houthis to ceasefire, the boats are coming, Trump or Biden.... .... Really relentless stirring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 13 hours ago, uttoxram75 said: All the main parties in western countries are pro Israel. Oil, gas and trade through the red sea is the reason and always has been. The Empire never really stopped when it comes to money and commerce. I’m not saying I disagree but what has “The Empire” got to do with anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 14 hours ago, uttoxram75 said: All the main parties in western countries are pro Israel. Oil, gas and trade through the red sea is the reason and always has been. The Empire never really stopped when it comes to money and commerce. Certainly nations financial self interests play an enormous part, as they always do.. But if it's largely about the fossil fuels, then why pick the side against the Palestinians, whom the Arab nations (and Iran) are sympathetic to, as it is they that control most of the oil and gas. I think Israel has also played a very important strategic role for the US, first in the Cold War and then in the 'War on Terror'. There are also political pressures at home that keep them on side. The hope is that the next generation of US politicians will have outgrown all this, but unfortunately by then it looks like it will all be too late for the Palestinians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerbysLane Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 22 hours ago, Comrade 86 said: So are we. We're in this up to our necks. When I say 'we', what I actually mean is this absolute disgrace of a government. I don't read the daily telegraph, but I do quite often flick through the headlines on their website. The daily telegraph seems to set the agenda for the conservatives and consequently the current government so it is useful to keep an eye on what the telegraph are saying (even though most of it is crazy). Anyway, they have been noticeably ramping up war talk, we should get prepared to go to war with Russia etc. Mental. Comrade 86 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 5 minutes ago, DerbysLane said: I don't read the daily telegraph, but I do quite often flick through the headlines on their website. The daily telegraph seems to set the agenda for the conservatives and consequently the current government so it is useful to keep an eye on what the telegraph are saying (even though most of it is crazy). Anyway, they have been noticeably ramping up war talk, we should get prepared to go to war with Russia etc. Mental. It’s all so barking mad un joined up talking and thinking ,, seriously prepare for war against Russia and China in one breath , wipe out our ability to produce virgin steel because we can buy it cheaper from these predicted foes in the next and can’t you just see us contacting China and Russia mid war asking for a breather in hostilities because the wind ain’t blowing and the suns gone in so we have no energy to carry on just now so can’t we have a bit of a football kick about until conditions improve on the power front ,,,,, oh and can you just hold off starting because we are a bit short on the kind of toxic masculinity that kind of helps on the soldiering front ,, the worlds gone batso I tell you cstand 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 Stretching himself thin, old Putin. A two week invasion turned into a few years of intense war. But he's about to turn his attention to what? The rest of Europe? Britain? Ok. To be fair, the right wing macho stuff is working wonders on the lads at work. I'm half set to follow Rishi and Suella into the trenches when the fight for freedom starts. Got my own Nerf gun. Just need Joe or Donald to tell Rishi who we should aim it at. Might fly us out to one of those US bases that aren't in Syria. Conscription my arse. The IDF are doing a fine job for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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