Palestine

[Mostyn6]

9 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

But even here you show your bias. Who said there are 6,000 civilian deaths? Hamas is a proscribed terrorist group they are not civilians. 

who said the whole Palestinian population are members of Hamas? That is ridiculous and disingenuous, and for someone calling out "offensive" comments in this thread, highly hypocritical.

[PistoldPete]

9 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

who said the whole Palestinian population are members of Hamas? That is ridiculous and disingenuous, and for someone calling out "offensive" comments in this thread, highly hypocritical.

Who said indeed. Not me for sure. All I pointed out was that  quoting deaths amongst  Palestinians and claiming they were all civilians is misleading and false. 

[Magicman]

40 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Magicman we do not know the truth. Claiming it as fake attack is misleading. It was a stray bomb… from which side we do not know. 

Fake news was the claim made by Hamas it was from Israel. 

[PistoldPete]

2 hours ago, Alpha said:

Their suffering, fake. Israel suffering, real. I'm catching on, see. 

Your guidance has been a massive help

Well forgive me Alpha if I took that as sarcastic comment. And that you were being sarcastic in implying that Palestines suffering is fake and Israel’s is real. Isn’t that implying Israel’s suffering isn’t real? After the worst anti semitic atrocities since the Second World War? 

This is war. It’s horrible for both sides. Yet somehow some people don’t want to recognise Jews as the victims.  
 

 

[Alph]

30 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

But even here you show your bias. Who said there are 6,000 civilian deaths? Hamas is a proscribed terrorist group they are not civilians. 

Civilian deaths.

[Alph]

2 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Well forgive me Alpha if I took that as sarcastic comment. And that you were being sarcastic in implying that Palestines suffering is fake and Israel’s is real. Isn’t that implying Israel’s suffering isn’t real? After the worst anti semitic atrocities since the Second World War? 

This is war. It’s horrible for both sides. Yet somehow some people don’t want to recognise Jews as the victims.  
 

 

Nope, I've never tried to deny that the festival attack was carried out by Hamas. Or more specifically Qassam Brigade, one of the military branches. Never. 

However Magicman did say "actors" when it came to the videos I posted. 

I thought it was obvious I was mocking his logic. That's it. I'm not mocking Israel. I'm not denying the threat of Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran or any of the Palestinian militias represent them. Never have. 

I've never claimed this is all one sided conflict. 

But I will say that the Palestinians suffer more and a major cause of the conflict isn't antisemitism but in fact Israel's illegal expansion and the ever deteriorating conditions in Gaza. These I just see as facts. More civilian  death for Palestinians is a fact. More land lost. More displacement. 

Much of it could be avoided if there were sanctions on Israel. If the UN concerns were actually heard by America and they didn't choose to support their ally. If the illegal expansion was halted and they answered when charged with excessive force. If they were free to defend the borders determined but not expand them. 

[Stive Pesley]

2 hours ago, PistoldPete said:

As for Dresden, a good point. Was Churchill ever branded a war criminal? 

And worse than that - Hiroshima. Retaliation for the bombing of Pearl Harbour (a military target - 2,403 U.S. personnel dead and 68 civilians). Hiroshima killed 70,000–126,000 civilians. Through the prism of this current conflict, it's hard to justify such a brutal response, yet the west look on Hiroshima as somehow "casualties of war". So much so that we did another one on Nagasaki 3 days later and killed a further 60,000–80,000 civilians 

 

[PistoldPete]

11 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Civilian deaths.

 But where does it say how many civilian deaths? Only for the Israeli side I think is that distinction made. I did look at the stats you provided but couldn’t see the numbers of civilian deaths for Palestinians. If I overlooked that apologies. 

[PistoldPete]

3 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

And worse than that - Hiroshima. Retaliation for the bombing of Pearl Harbour (a military target - 2,403 U.S. personnel dead and 68 civilians). Hiroshima killed 70,000–126,000 civilians. Through the prism of this current conflict, it's hard to justify such a brutal response, yet the west look on Hiroshima as somehow "casualties of war". So much so that we did another one on Nagasaki 3 days later and killed a further 60,000–80,000 civilians 

 

Indeed it’s a moral maze. But seeing the things as tit for tat retaliations gets you nowhere in that maze,.

The nuclear bombs brought about the end of the war. Whether the terrible loss of life involved saved more lives in the end we will never know. 

[Alph]

Hope this looks alright. I'm a moron at stuff like this

 

[Alph]

Just want to add though that I'm not saying that Israel are owed another 58,000 dead before I sympathise with them!!

308 was too many. The festival attack horrific. 

I'm only referencing to try to show Magicman that Palestinians don't really need to act. They definitely die plenty

Edited October 18, 2023 by Alpha

[PistoldPete]

12 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Just want to add though that I'm not saying that Israel are owed another 58,000 dead before I sympathise with them!!

308 was too many. The festival attack horrific. 

I'm only referencing to try to show Magicman that Palestinians don't really need to act. They definitely die plenty

I get that. And I think Magicman goes too far too. 
 

as I say I did look at the stats on casualties but could only see a breakdown between Israel military and civilian, nothing similar for Palestinian. the breakdown by gender might give a clue though mostly male. 
 

 

[Stive Pesley]

22 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

The nuclear bombs brought about the end of the war. Whether the terrible loss of life involved saved more lives in the end we will never know. 

Indeed, and following the same logic, the Israeli government could say that they will suffer no more deaths at the hands of Hamas, if they obliterate the Palestinians in their entirety. Which scarily does seem to be their end game here

[PistoldPete]

8 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Indeed, and following the same logic, the Israeli government could say that they will suffer no more deaths at the hands of Hamas, if they obliterate the Palestinians in their entirety. Which scarily does seem to be their end game here

I think that is exactly how they see it … obliterating Hamas rather than all Palestinians. Even so it seems bound to be a bloody war I am afraid to say. 

[Ram-Alf]

34 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

And worse than that - Hiroshima. Retaliation for the bombing of Pearl Harbour (a military target - 2,403 U.S. personnel dead and 68 civilians). Hiroshima killed 70,000–126,000 civilians. Through the prism of this current conflict, it's hard to justify such a brutal response, yet the west look on Hiroshima as somehow "casualties of war". So much so that we did another one on Nagasaki 3 days later and killed a further 60,000–80,000 civilians 

 

This is the utter madness and stupidity of War by those in power, Japan hitting Pearl Harbour is equal to Hamas hitting Israel...the odds are staked against the attacker.  

The USA thought about a landing force in Japan, But the Japanese...right down to the Children were armed with swords and spears and sticks and stones, As well as being armed, The Japanese since birth were told that Hirohito was a God.

The USA if they went in with a landing force...up to 500k armed personnel could be lost, The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the worse of 2 evils.

Now this is one of those crazy moments in WW2, On one of the Marianas Islands I believe, A Battalion of 1st and 2nd generation Japanese/American soldiers circa 300/500 were ordered to save 235 USA troops who were surrounded by the Japanese, The order was given by an American General who wanted to show his superiors how good a commander he was, They saved the USA soldiers, The General was ecstatic and wanted to give medals out to those who did a sterling job, The next day on the parade ground the General came out to see so few USA soldiers, He demanded to know where all the other soldiers were, He was told...this is what is left from the Battalion Sir...400+ were killed to save 235 men...crazy aye 🤷‍♂️   

[maxjam]

Not entirely sure the rush for instant news is helping.

And I'm definitely sure that MPs, former or otherwise, shouldn't be using language like this.

 

[sage]

1 hour ago, Stive Pesley said:

And worse than that - Hiroshima. Retaliation for the bombing of Pearl Harbour (a military target - 2,403 U.S. personnel dead and 68 civilians). Hiroshima killed 70,000–126,000 civilians. Through the prism of this current conflict, it's hard to justify such a brutal response, yet the west look on Hiroshima as somehow "casualties of war". So much so that we did another one on Nagasaki 3 days later and killed a further 60,000–80,000 civilians 

 

As awful as those bombings were, the cost on both sides of continuing a conventional war would have been higher.

 

[ramit]

9 hours ago, Turk Thrust said:

Of course, there are some on here, such as Ramit, who truly believe that Israel deliberately allowed over a thousand of their citizens to be massacred as a pretext to invade Gaza. Will they I wonder now hold that Hamas deliberately bombed the hospital to gain international support? Both as ludicrous as the other

You know the saying, all is fair in war.  I don't doubt that Hamas would use what methods are available to them to win a most important part of this conflict, the information war.  I don't see how they could have been behind this bombing though, that missile is much larger than anything they have had up until now.  The video I posted earlier has been proven to be of the hospital strike, compare it to the YouTube video that followed. 

Keep in mind that Israeli authorities demanded that the hospital be cleared in the 24 hour warning they gave, that it was a target.  Their defense minister refers to the population of Gaza as human animals and has not to my knowledge been reprimanded for such outrageous talk by other government members.

I think there are madmen on both sides of this conflict and that the general population will be the one to suffer most.

[Alph]

8 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Not entirely sure the rush for instant news is helping.

And I'm definitely sure that MPs, former or otherwise, shouldn't be using language like this.

 

Can't that be seen as inciting violence? 

Israel has not forfeited it's right to exist. I doubt most of the people supporting Palestine around the world think like that. What a lunatic. 

The bombing of this hospital seems... I don't want say minor.... But it's kind of just a part of this conflict. 

Would Israel purposely bomb a hospital full of civilians? Hmm, I doubt it. Would they bomb it if they thought Hamas was there? Definitely 

Would Hamas do it on purpose? I doubt it. Would they have done it by accident and blamed Israel? Definitely. 

It's more about why the hell does anybody think this is an acceptable strategy to hit Hamas? To defeat terrorists do you have to become terrorists? 

Civilians should be protected. Very little has been done to stop this conflict. It's actually had plenty of support from the World Police of America. 

Now we get to see all the ugly stuff because nobody actually wanted peace for the last half century. 

[PistoldPete]

26 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Not entirely sure the rush for instant news is helping.

And I'm definitely sure that MPs, former or otherwise, shouldn't be using language like this.

 

Well that is exactly why he is an ex MP.