The Paul Warne Poll

[sunnyhill60]

1 hour ago, duncanjwitham said:

I really don’t know why you’re struggling with this.  It’s not even really a criticism of Warne specifically, more of changing the style of manager radically, 10 games into a complete rebuild. The second we did that, any pretence of stability was gone. If we’d signed Warne in the summer, let him build a squad and then sacked him for Rosenior after 10 games it would probably have been the same.

So any people wanting stability in the short term are not going to get it, whether we keep Warne or not. We’ve signed 10 players this summer, and probably moved as many out.  We’ll probably do the same next summer.  That’s the definition of dismantling a squad, and pretty much the definition of instability IMO.

I don't struggle with following what you are saying but more its relevance now. How does the number of players we have  signed compare with other clubs? Not too far from the mean I would think (can't be bothered to do the research). Your comments ignore the possibility we could have been promoted last season or indeed this which would lead to another rebuild anyway. 

[sage]

1 hour ago, Brailsford Ram said:

It might help if you didn't talk nonsense in the first place and then people wouldn't have to take a stab in the dark to interpret just what you are trying to say. Sometimes you come across as clear as mud. It's quite simple, you are saying it's a two season transition for Warne and we have to wait until next season for him to complete it. I'm disagreeing with you. He's aiming to compete for promotion now.

When did I say we aren't aiming to compete for promotion?

I said the squad is in a 2 year transition as we move from Rosenoirs players to Warne's. No more, no less.

Edited August 29, 2023 by sage

[Archied]

9 hours ago, duncanjwitham said:

The chance of stability disappeared the moment Warne was appointed (in the way he was, anyway).  It was always going to take him 2 seasons to dismantle the squad we’d just built 10 games earlier, while we wait for the likes of Hourihane/NML/Smith/Barkhuizen’s contracts to expire.

Rooney and rosenior built a squad to get us through 1 season , no problem with that because it was pretty much all they could do under the circumstances and in fairness they did it well , we can moan about some of Warner’s incomings being on the older side but they are younger and have a few more seasons in them than those who went out , his job is to get us up to the championship not find players we can improve and sell on , we are derby , not Peterborough 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Archied]

7 hours ago, Rev said:

I'm not seeing the connection between our club, and Scottish independence tbf.

Have you ever seen Alex salmon and Conner salmon in the same room together??? ,,, think about 🤔

[Guest]

6 hours ago, sage said:

When did I say we aren't aiming to compete for promotion?

 

I didn't definitively say you were if you read what I said more carefully.

I said 'if you are waiting until next season until we mount a challenge for promotion.'

The word if, which you choose to omit, changes the whole context of the sentence. What I said was conditional, not conclusive.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Brailsford Ram

[duncanjwitham]

2 hours ago, Archied said:

Rooney and rosenior built a squad to get us through 1 season , no problem with that because it was pretty much all they could do under the circumstances and in fairness they did it well , we can moan about some of Warner’s incomings being on the older side but they are younger and have a few more seasons in them than those who went out , his job is to get us up to the championship not find players we can improve and sell on , we are derby , not Peterborough 🤷🏻‍♂️

Basically, none of that has anything to do with what I posted 🤷‍♂️.

Rooney and Rosenior built a squad to play football out from the back.  A fair chunk of whom were given 2 year contracts.  (And to be clear, I have no problem with any of that, they did a decent job.)

We then appointed Warne, 10 games later, who didn't want to play out from the back, he wanted the polar opposite.  So we had the whole of last season being told we couldn't judge Warne because he needed his own players in.

This season, we've still got the likes of Hourihane, Smith, NML, Barkhuizen, maybe even Collins, who either do not fit the fit/mobile type of player that Warne wants, or play in positions that don't exist in his preferred system.  That's arguably 5 of our 6 biggest signings from the previous summer (McGoldrick being the 6th), and I reckon maybe a quarter of our total wage budget (purely based on 5/~20 senior players).  I don't see Warne really being able to consistently get the sort of team he wants on the field until most of those players are gone, which realistically means waiting until their contracts expire.

None of that is a criticism or Warne (or Rosenior), it's just that as soon as we did a massive shift in playing style immediately after a complete rebuild, the instability was baked in for the next 2 years.  Sticking with Warne isn't going to make the problem of playing gas-out football with at least one of Hourihane/Smith in midfield, and NML stuck somewhere he can't play, disappear.

[Archied]

6 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

Basically, none of that has anything to do with what I posted 🤷‍♂️.

Rooney and Rosenior built a squad to play football out from the back.  A fair chunk of whom were given 2 year contracts.  (And to be clear, I have no problem with any of that, they did a decent job.)

We then appointed Warne, 10 games later, who didn't want to play out from the back, he wanted the polar opposite.  So we had the whole of last season being told we couldn't judge Warne because he needed his own players in.

This season, we've still got the likes of Hourihane, Smith, NML, Barkhuizen, maybe even Collins, who either do not fit the fit/mobile type of player that Warne wants, or play in positions that don't exist in his preferred system.  That's arguably 5 of our 6 biggest signings from the previous summer (McGoldrick being the 6th), and I reckon maybe a quarter of our total wage budget (purely based on 5/~20 senior players).  I don't see Warne really being able to consistently get the sort of team he wants on the field until most of those players are gone, which realistically means waiting until their contracts expire.

None of that is a criticism or Warne (or Rosenior), it's just that as soon as we did a massive shift in playing style immediately after a complete rebuild, the instability was baked in for the next 2 years.  Sticking with Warne isn't going to make the problem of playing gas-out football with at least one of Hourihane/Smith in midfield, and NML stuck somewhere he can't play, disappear.

So you reckon nml barks and Collins are play out from the back players ? I really think you are over egging what the priority of recruitment under escaping from bankruptcy was , we tried to get the best quality of players we could with what we had and the priority was to even have enough numbers to put eleven on the pitch and non of the players you mention only suit playing out from the back , so in my view we got in enough players to fulfill our fixture list hopefully of the quality not to get relegated , to my mind rosenior or warne faced a rebuild from then on so not much lost with keeping rosenior or switching to warne maybe warne type team players more freely available and cheaper 🤷🏻‍♂️

[RoyMac5]

39 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

None of that is a criticism or Warne (or Rosenior), it's just that as soon as we did a massive shift in playing style immediately after a complete rebuild, the instability was baked in for the next 2 years.  Sticking with Warne isn't going to make the problem of playing gas-out football with at least one of Hourihane/Smith in midfield, and NML stuck somewhere he can't play, disappear.

👍

*whispers* If it had been Mel who appointed Warne then I wonder what would be said? I wonder if it was anticipated just how inflexible Warne could be?

Edit: what difference having a RFB last season might have made? We still don't have one.

Edited August 29, 2023 by RoyMac5

[duncanjwitham]

1 minute ago, Archied said:

So you reckon nml barks and Collins are play out from the back players ? I really think you are over egging what the priority of recruitment under escaping from bankruptcy was , we tried to get the best quality of players we could with what we had and the priority was to even have enough numbers to put eleven on the pitch and non of the players you mention only suit playing out from the back , so in my view we got in enough players to fulfill our fixture list hopefully of the quality not to get relegated , to my mind rosenior or warne faced a rebuild from then on so not much lost with keeping rosenior or switching to warne maybe warne type team players more freely available and cheaper 🤷🏻‍♂️

Certainly I think Barkhuizen and NML were signed to play the wide roles in a 433/4231-type system, with us playing out from the back.  Collins is maybe a case of us having to settle for what we could find, which is why I separated him off the from the other 4 when I listed the players.

Honestly, I think your under egging what a good job Rooney and Rosenior did getting those players in.  It wasn't a last minute scramble when we came out of admin, we were being linked with the majority of them for weeks while still in admin, and they all signed very quickly when the admin was done.  They clearly had a vision of how the wanted us to play and went out and got the best players they could to play that way.  It absolutely wasn't anything along the lines of "sign a the best bunch of players we can and hope we can get a team out of them".

[Archied]

46 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

Certainly I think Barkhuizen and NML were signed to play the wide roles in a 433/4231-type system, with us playing out from the back.  Collins is maybe a case of us having to settle for what we could find, which is why I separated him off the from the other 4 when I listed the players.

Honestly, I think your under egging what a good job Rooney and Rosenior did getting those players in.  It wasn't a last minute scramble when we came out of admin, we were being linked with the majority of them for weeks while still in admin, and they all signed very quickly when the admin was done.  They clearly had a vision of how the wanted us to play and went out and got the best players they could to play that way.  It absolutely wasn't anything along the lines of "sign a the best bunch of players we can and hope we can get a team out of them".

and yet barks and nml had decent season under warne ( wonder how much of theyre career s have been spent in teams playing out from the back , same question for other ros/ Rooney recruits ? )

Totally disagree with you and the players you quote have been playing pro football for a long time , before playing out from the back became an obsession with some and played successfully in lots of teams that didn’t play that way so no I’m not under egging how much these players were hand picked to fit only one style of football and yes I believe you are vastly over egging the need for warne to totally rebuild after rosenior / Rooney one window recruitment 🤷🏻‍♂️
I get your not keen on warne or his approach, that’s fair enough it’s all about opinions but let’s not pretend that warne replacing rosenior was some big problem in  terms of culling players that no longer fit and needing new ones hence destroying some in progress build and wasted time and money ,, it’s just not

Edited August 29, 2023 by Archied

[duncanjwitham]

1 minute ago, Archied said:

Totally disagree and the players you quote have been playing pro football for a long time , before playing out from the back became an obsession with some and played successfully in lots of teams that didn’t play that way so no I’m not under egging how much these players were hand picked to fit only one style of football and yes I believe you are vastly over egging the need for warne to totally rebuild after rosenior / Rooney one window recruitment 🤷🏻‍♂️

5 minutes ago you were saying these players were basically the leftover scraps we could find, that we were hoping would save us from relegation.  And now they're pro players who've played in lots of successful sides 🤷‍♂️. 

So if we had lots of players who could successfully play in a lot of different styles, and we didn't need a rebuild, why did we spend all of last season being told Warne couldn't be judged yet because he didn't have his own players in?

[Brammie Steve]

Guide to the expert insulters:-

"I'm not calling you a liar but......"

"With respect.........."

"Far be it from me to imply that you are stupid but......"

"I must congratulate you on the asinine nature of your opinion!"

"Not wishing to state the blindingly obvious but......"

The liberal use of "But" or "However" can prove a very useful weapon in the expert insulter's toolbox. Used effectively it can leave the recipient feeling that they have been complimented. Only on reflection does the insult hit home.

 

NB. Overuse of insults often destroy what could otherwise be a fruitful exchange of opinions maling many of the post too unpleasant to be taken seriously!

 

 

[duncanjwitham]

25 minutes ago, Archied said:

and yet barks and nml had decent season under warne ( wonder how much of theyre career s have been spent in teams playing out from the back , same question for other ros/ Rooney recruits ? )

Just seen your edit after I replied.

NML only really played well when switched away from Warne's preferred formation.  Barkhuizen had a good run of games around Christmas but then was randomly dropped and barely used again.  That good run also coincided with not playing Warne's preferred formation.  Neither of those players looked remotely comfortable when playing at wingback, or the sort of inside forward role NML had towards the end of last season and early this.

I'm not saying that they aren't good players or that they can't play in various styles, but they were signed to do specific things for the team that Rosenior was building.  And Warne wants completely different things from players in those areas of the field.  Rosenior wanted composure on the ball in midfield and pacy wingers to stretch teams and create space.  Warne wants wingbacks and energetic midfielders that can get up and down.  We had a bunch of players that can do the first lot of things reasonably well, but not the second lot.

Do you really think Warne wanted to play 433/4231 for most of last season? Do you really think he wanted to have to switch back to it after 4 games this season?  He's struggling to get results out of this squad (and last season's) when he lines them up in the type of system he wants to use, because we (still) have a bunch of players on our books that don't really suit it.  

And honestly, if you think we didn't need a load of new players in to make Warne's approach work, then that's a damning indictment of Warne's performance last season.  If he had all the players he needs, and still failed to even make the playoffs...

 

[Reggie Greenwood]

19 minutes ago, Brammie Steve said:

Guide to the expert insulters:-

"I'm not calling you a liar but......"

"With respect.........."

"Far be it from me to imply that you are stupid but......"

"I must congratulate you on the asinine nature of your opinion!"

"Not wishing to state the blindingly obvious but......"

The liberal use of "But" or "However" can prove a very useful weapon in the expert insulter's toolbox. Used effectively it can leave the recipient feeling that they have been complimented. Only on reflection does the insult hit home.

 

NB. Overuse of insults often destroy what could otherwise be a fruitful exchange of opinions maling many of the post too unpleasant to be taken seriously!

 

 

Add clueless to that lot 😅

[Archied]

41 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

5 minutes ago you were saying these players were basically the leftover scraps we could find, that we were hoping would save us from relegation.  And now they're pro players who've played in lots of successful sides 🤷‍♂️. 

So if we had lots of players who could successfully play in a lot of different styles, and we didn't need a rebuild, why did we spend all of last season being told Warne couldn't be judged yet because he didn't have his own players in?

Really , where did I say these players were left over scraps? I said they were the best we could get in our circumstances 

because we would have spent the same amount being told rosenior couldn’t be judged ( if given permanent job )until he built his side with some windows not governed by the extreme mess the club was in

as I say , you don’t want warne , don’t like his approach,,, fair enough but this build , knock down , build line your creating is a joke 

[Foreveram]

40 minutes ago, Brammie Steve said:

Guide to the expert insulters:-

"I'm not calling you a liar but......"

"With respect.........."

"Far be it from me to imply that you are stupid but......"

"I must congratulate you on the asinine nature of your opinion!"

"Not wishing to state the blindingly obvious but......"

The liberal use of "But" or "However" can prove a very useful weapon in the expert insulter's toolbox. Used effectively it can leave the recipient feeling that they have been complimented. Only on reflection does the insult hit home.

 

NB. Overuse of insults often destroy what could otherwise be a fruitful exchange of opinions maling many of the post too unpleasant to be taken seriously!

 

 

Whilst I value your opinion I feel your misguided.

[Archied]

26 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

Just seen your edit after I replied.

NML only really played well when switched away from Warne's preferred formation.  Barkhuizen had a good run of games around Christmas but then was randomly dropped and barely used again.  That good run also coincided with not playing Warne's preferred formation.  Neither of those players looked remotely comfortable when playing at wingback, or the sort of inside forward role NML had towards the end of last season and early this.

I'm not saying that they aren't good players or that they can't play in various styles, but they were signed to do specific things for the team that Rosenior was building.  And Warne wants completely different things from players in those areas of the field.  Rosenior wanted composure on the ball in midfield and pacy wingers to stretch teams and create space.  Warne wants wingbacks and energetic midfielders that can get up and down.  We had a bunch of players that can do the first lot of things reasonably well, but not the second lot.

Do you really think Warne wanted to play 433/4231 for most of last season? Do you really think he wanted to have to switch back to it after 4 games this season?  He's struggling to get results out of this squad (and last season's) when he lines them up in the type of system he wants to use, because we (still) have a bunch of players on our books that don't really suit it.  

And honestly, if you think we didn't need a load of new players in to make Warne's approach work, then that's a damning indictment of Warne's performance last season.  If he had all the players he needs, and still failed to even make the playoffs...

 

Yeah your right 👍

[Brammie Steve]

16 minutes ago, Foreveram said:

Whilst I value your opinion I feel your* misguided.

*You’re not your if you see what I mean!

Beware the Grammar GestadtPolizei!

Edited August 29, 2023 by Brammie Steve

[duncanjwitham]

8 minutes ago, Archied said:

Really , where did I say these players were left over scraps? I said they were the best we could get in our circumstances 

because we would have spent the same amount being told rosenior couldn’t be judged ( if given permanent job )until he built his side with some windows not governed by the extreme mess the club was in

as I say , you don’t want warne , don’t like his approach,,, fair enough but this build , knock down , build line your creating is a joke 

You literally said the players were hopefully good enough to avoid relegation.  How else is anybody supposed to take that? 

I'm basically the one defending Warne here.  I'm lining up all the mitigations as to why we under-performed a bit last season, and early doors this one, and you're denying them.  There's no way IMO that Warne wants to be lining up 4231 with Smith and Hourihane (or Bird last season) in midfield together, and the fact we're having to do that to get results means we're clearly not getting "full Warne-ball" (if you know what I mean).  We might get closer with Fornah in there (I haven't seen him play yet, so no comments either way from me on that one).

[Foreveram]

Just now, Brammie Steve said:

You’re not your if you see what I mean!

Beware the Grammar GestadtPolizei!

Yes sorry I missed that.😂