Contracts For Young Players

[Yani P]

Hopefully this is something the club will get a lot better at with forward planning..agreeing contracts even before they reach the age where they sign one..

Birmingham have done it again..

 

 

[Crewton]

8 minutes ago, Yani P said:

Hopefully this is something the club will get a lot better at with forward planning..agreeing contracts even before they reach the age where they sign one..

Birmingham have done it again..

 

 

Aye, but the kid (and his guardians) has to want to sign for DCFC and not take the glory route with Liverpool, Man City etc. Maybe there is more that the club can do to persuade them, but what? They've already got a faster track to first team football than they'll get with any PL club. 

Jobe Bellingham seems to be cut from the same cloth as his brother and, like his brother, he might just save his club from extinction. 

[duncanjwitham]

Is “agreed terms” actually legally binding though? If he’s not old enough to sign a contract, he’s not old enough to sign a contract. If a bigger club offer him mega millions in the next few months, can he just take it?

[LERam]

27 minutes ago, Yani P said:

Hopefully this is something the club will get a lot better at with forward planning..agreeing contracts even before they reach the age where they sign one..

Birmingham have done it again..

 

 

Surely it means nothing until he actually signs it? So for what purpose is it? Other than maybe show the player you defo want them 

[Millenniumram]

I don’t think the issues we’ve had are particularly to do with forward planning. 

Part of the reason we lost so many young players very recently is because we simply couldn’t hand out contracts whilst in administration. That problem was of course temporary, and I hope never poses an issue again.

The main difficultly though is persuading players to stay here. Until a player is a professional, we have no control over whether they stay with us or move elsewhere. We’ve seen a lot of players turn down pro deals here to sign at big clubs like Man City and Liverpool instead. That shows that our academy status is not enough alone to keep players here.

Is there actually anything more we can do though, or is this just an issue built into the academy system? I fear it will always be this way, takeover or no takeover. We already clearly offer more first team football for youngsters than any other team practically, so I don’t know what else we can do.

[Big Trav]

You’ll see some deals agreed soon with younger players. Jack Thompson will be one that agrees a deal with someone this summer 

[BramcoteRam84]

10 hours ago, Yani P said:

Hopefully this is something the club will get a lot better at with forward planning..agreeing contracts even before they reach the age where they sign one..

Birmingham have done it again..

 

 

Like anything though both parties need to agree. Derby I think tried to do it with Kaide Gordon and Liam Delap but they wanted to go to Liverpool and City respectively. Not much more we could’ve done. 
 

The likes of Kellyman, Plange, Ebiowei had we been able to stick a long term deal (before Palace showed interest) in front of them I think they would’ve stayed.

But yes hope we can our house back in order on this now.

[Tombo]

9 hours ago, duncanjwitham said:

Is “agreed terms” actually legally binding though? If he’s not old enough to sign a contract, he’s not old enough to sign a contract. If a bigger club offer him mega millions in the next few months, can he just take it?

Indeed yes, he hasn't signed the contract, he has just agreed the terms of it. He could go back in September and say "actually no, I want more money"

[duncanjwitham]

8 hours ago, Millenniumram said:

I don’t think the issues we’ve had are particularly to do with forward planning. 

Part of the reason we lost so many young players very recently is because we simply couldn’t hand out contracts whilst in administration. That problem was of course temporary, and I hope never poses an issue again.

The main difficultly though is persuading players to stay here. Until a player is a professional, we have no control over whether they stay with us or move elsewhere. We’ve seen a lot of players turn down pro deals here to sign at big clubs like Man City and Liverpool instead. That shows that our academy status is not enough alone to keep players here.

Is there actually anything more we can do though, or is this just an issue built into the academy system? I fear it will always be this way, takeover or no takeover. We already clearly offer more first team football for youngsters than any other team practically, so I don’t know what else we can do.

Obviously the admin has caused us issues specifically, but there's a wider issue.  Post-Brexit, English clubs can't just hoover up the best teenagers from Europe any more (FIFA rules make it difficult for Under 18s to move between countries, but the EU Single Market overrides that), so they're obviously focussing on English players instead.  The issue they have is that if they wait until they are 17/18 years old, they cost like £20m+ (see Jude Bellingham), because smaller English clubs are comparatively richer than equivalent European clubs.  So they're hoovering up all the English U16s, who aren't old enough to sign a pro contract yet, and will only cost whatever the transfer tribunal decides they are worth (which is fractions of what the likes of Bellingham cost).

[Guest]

The issue is if you offer too early and the player doesn't progress you have contracts tied up on players you don't want and too late you run the risk of losing that player to someone who will offer them. Derby have been in both situations with players of recent years and with the admin that has made them more cautious in some instances.

The big clubs will generally always hoover up the best talent with promises, wages and expenses for the parents especially with the EPPP system being as it is. That doesn't mean though that Derby will lose every time, moves between Cat1s are not as often as people think and Derby as a Cat 1 make those moves expensive.

I see Jack Thompson mentioned and he already has a scholarship offer so any fee has to be set by tribunal not just the £200k that Derby would be due under EPPP if he hadn't been offered one yet, that's generally why they offer scholarships early. The same as pro deals they are offered if there is interest as it pushes up the value of the player if it goes to tribunal as we have seen this week. 

You would always like to think that boys who have been in the system form 6 - 8 years old and are Derby fans would stay but would you stay somewhere if you could have the "glamour" and increase your wages by x10 in some instances? Unfortunately football is a business and if you're employed in it you want to maximise your earnings and you will have more trials and opportunities leaving City or Chelsea than you would leaving Derby or Stoke... and honestly 90% of boys will be released before they are 21.

Brexit has created a new market in English players and that has added value to them but 16 - 18 is still early to gamble on a player unless you are convinced he has a chance or you can recoup your money, something that Liverpool and City would have thought on Gordon and Delap.

 

[Millenniumram]

3 hours ago, duncanjwitham said:

Obviously the admin has caused us issues specifically, but there's a wider issue.  Post-Brexit, English clubs can't just hoover up the best teenagers from Europe any more (FIFA rules make it difficult for Under 18s to move between countries, but the EU Single Market overrides that), so they're obviously focussing on English players instead.  The issue they have is that if they wait until they are 17/18 years old, they cost like £20m+ (see Jude Bellingham), because smaller English clubs are comparatively richer than equivalent European clubs.  So they're hoovering up all the English U16s, who aren't old enough to sign a pro contract yet, and will only cost whatever the transfer tribunal decides they are worth (which is fractions of what the likes of Bellingham cost).

Indeed, that’s the latter point I was trying to make, but you’ve done it far more eloquently! Very good point about the impacts of Brexit, it’s certainly changed things, and not for the better from our viewpoint. But yeah, the main problem we have is the big clubs luring all the best talent to them - it’s very difficult for young players to resist the money and the stature of club. And there’s absolutely nothing we can do to stop them. So I think this will be the way it always is, unless the rules are changed.

[duncanjwitham]

26 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

Indeed, that’s the latter point I was trying to make, but you’ve done it far more eloquently! Very good point about the impacts of Brexit, it’s certainly changed things, and not for the better from our viewpoint. But yeah, the main problem we have is the big clubs luring all the best talent to them - it’s very difficult for young players to resist the money and the stature of club. And there’s absolutely nothing we can do to stop them. So I think this will be the way it always is, unless the rules are changed.

The ironic thing is, I think every English football fan wants the best young English players going and playing regularly for the best teams in the country, playing in the Champions League etc and really kicking on the national team in the process.  They just don't want the best young English players from their clubs going.

[ram59]

14 hours ago, Yani P said:

Hopefully this is something the club will get a lot better at with forward planning..agreeing contracts even before they reach the age where they sign one..

Birmingham have done it again..

 

 

I think that the situation with the Bellinghams, is probably driven by their love of the club, unless Birmingham have managed to draw up a contract whereby the Bellinghams are handsomely rewarded by signing the contract.

I would imagine the likes of Gordon and Delap were advised by their agents 'to look after number one' and that it was best for them to go to Liverpool and Man City prior to signing a contract with Derby. If they had signed for Derby on their 17th birthday, it is likely that those clubs would still have signed them, but having paid a few million, would be offering a less attractive personal package for the youngsters. How does the club avoid this with future young 'diamonds', it would involve honest negotiations with the youngster and his advisors so that the youngster doesn't personally lose out by signing the contract with Derby. Whether this could be as a result of signing on bonuses and agreed transfer fees or such like, I don't know.

What I do know, is that the Bellinghams have saved Birmingham from the fate that we have suffered, whilst the snowball effect has now resulted in Derby losing even more promising youngsters for next to nothing.

Daft as it sounds, not receiving a combined approximate £20M for those 2 youngsters, has resulted in administration, relegation and the loss of so many youngsters, costing the club at least £50M in total.

[Millenniumram]

1 hour ago, duncanjwitham said:

The ironic thing is, I think every English football fan wants the best young English players going and playing regularly for the best teams in the country, playing in the Champions League etc and really kicking on the national team in the process.  They just don't want the best young English players from their clubs going.

Oh of course - the reason why England have done so well recently is because we’ve had so many top young talents playing at the very highest level. The thing is though, they have to actually be ready to play - and only the very best are generally. Most young players picked up from clubs like us just end up sat in the reserves, or shipped out on loan - their careers stagnating as a result. Think that’s what annoys fans the most, players like Gordon and Delap would have got regular first team football much quicker had they stayed here - which would probably have been far better for their career development.

[Wolfie20]

I have no issues with any young player from my club wanting to better himself and sign for the likes of Liverpool and Man City, meaning they have the chance to play at the highest level, if that isn't likely to be with us. What is galling is the pittance often being paid by these top clubs to secure young talent and we now even have the likes of Crystal Palace joining the feeding frenzy.

The footballing authorities have the power to radically change things for the better, put in place a fairer system to financially compensate the lower league clubs who nurture that talent in the players' formative years. Sadly, they are terrified of the influence the Premier League has and therefore do more or less nothing for fear of reprisals.

 

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, Wolfie20 said:

I have no issues with any young player from my club wanting to better himself and sign for the likes of Liverpool and Man City, meaning they have the chance to play at the highest level, if that isn't likely to be with us. What is galling is the pittance often being paid by these top clubs to secure young talent and we now even have the likes of Crystal Palace joining the feeding frenzy.

The footballing authorities have the power to radically change things for the better, put in place a fairer system to financially compensate the lower league clubs who nurture that talent in the players' formative years. Sadly, they are terrified of the influence the Premier League has and therefore do more or less nothing for fear of reprisals.

 

Palace, West Ham, Fulham, Everton, Southampton, Brighton and Leicester are now competing with City, United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and Spurs. The kids they pick up inevitably drop back into the smaller Cat 1s and 2s between 16 and 21… 

That’s 13 clubs at least who Derby are competing with before you include Leeds and Rangers who are spending this summer and I had forgot completely about Wolves who spent over £500k on u14 players just 3 years ago…

This is the reality now and the 16 clubs above are realistically creating players who are destined for the Championship and below as they recruit for the first team from the best worldwide.

The book “No hunger in paradise” shows just what the modern academy system looks like. It can be a dark place. 

[IlsonDerby]

On 18/07/2022 at 21:44, duncanjwitham said:

Is “agreed terms” actually legally binding though? If he’s not old enough to sign a contract, he’s not old enough to sign a contract. If a bigger club offer him mega millions in the next few months, can he just take it?

Bet it just juices up any compo payments if they do lose him (until the contract is signed) 

[duncanjwitham]

1 hour ago, IlsonDerby said:

Bet it just juices up any compo payments if they do lose him (until the contract is signed) 

Why would it though? He still hasn't signed anything legally binding.  At best they've agreed what he would be paid if he stayed at Birmingham, which is a negotiating lever for the player agreeing his contract at a new club, not for his club getting more compensation.

[Crewton]

4 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

Why would it though? He still hasn't signed anything legally binding.  At best they've agreed what he would be paid if he stayed at Birmingham, which is a negotiating lever for the player agreeing his contract at a new club, not for his club getting more compensation.

I think a Tribunal would factor in the evidence that a professional contract had been agreed with the player and his guardians and require any "gazumper" to pay more compensation. The intention to enter into contract, verbally or in writing, can be legally significant in some cases too. 

[Guest]

The offer forms basis for an increase in compensation, this is increased further if the player signs it. Other factors such as number of league games, time at club, International appearances (schoolboy or senior) all contribute to the final number given at tribunal.