The Ukraine War

[Ramarena]

24 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

I'm not normally one for conspiracy theories but this topic has me scratching my head. I've just seen this elsewhere and it's actually quite plausible that Putin could have arranged this for his own security:

By sabotaging the gas pipelines, Putin improves his own safety by removing one of the motives for his own defensteration - even if he were removed from power, the gas exports to Europe are not restarting any time soon.

It might give plotting oligarchs something to think about.

It’s could equally be factions of the Russian FSB plotting to destabilise Putin. 

Or someone looking to hurt countries still buying Russian gas.

There are plenty of candidates for this, all bets are off with Russia for starters as they’ve done so many insane things.  

Blaming the US, with Biden’s comments seems lazy to me. Sure it’s possible, but if they were seriously considering sabotaging it, I doubt they would have telegraphed it.

Somone has intentionally done, but there are potentially so many bad actors, it’s hard to pin down a rationale.

[Alph]

32 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

I'm not normally one for conspiracy theories but this topic has me scratching my head. I've just seen this elsewhere and it's actually quite plausible that Putin could have arranged this for his own security:

By sabotaging the gas pipelines, Putin improves his own safety by removing one of the motives for his own defensteration - even if he were removed from power, the gas exports to Europe are not restarting any time soon.

It might give plotting oligarchs something to think about.

I saw that too. I just couldn't understand how it removes motive of those that oppose him.

It would harm anyone with wealth tied up to that pipeline but surely it only alienates them further? 

Once again, not saying it isn't Russian sabotage. The problem I have is that all the reasons for Russia doing it so far seem a bit flimsy. The best being that it might create suspicion for the USA?

[Wolfie]

4 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I saw that too. I just couldn't understand how it removes motive of those that oppose him.

It would harm anyone with wealth tied up to that pipeline but surely it only alienates them further? 

Once again, not saying it isn't Russian sabotage. The problem I have is that all the reasons for Russia doing it so far seem a bit flimsy. The best being that it might create suspicion for the USA?

It's referring to the fact (?) that there must be oligarchs who would like to see Putin gone, so they can quickly end the war and resume gas exports to Europe.

[Ramarena]

Here’s another conspiracy theory that’s being put out there.

Putin has sabotaged Nordstream as a deflection tactic for Russia losing control of the hugely important Lyman area, which looks to have been taken back by the UAF.

Personally Id say it’s unlikely, but given some of the things they’ve said/done in the past it’s feasible. There’s certainly a big counter offensive progressing in the Lyman area.

But if Putin has lost control of Lyman then it’s a huge blow.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Ramarena

[Carl Sagan]

On 27/09/2022 at 13:24, Wolfie said:

OK so who's sabotaging the gas pipelines, then?.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63044747

I'm struggling to work out who gains from this. Is it just Russia underlining that there won't be any gas into the EU this winter?.

This Polish MEP has publicly thanked the Americans for it!

If you look at his profile, the banner pic is of him with Biden, he's chair of the USA-EU delegation and has a connection with Harvard Uni. If the Americans did do it, they won't thank him for this and it's a very dodgy and dangerous act.

[BaaLocks]

On 25/09/2022 at 22:34, Crewton said:

As far as I'm aware, Ukraine has never set foot on sovereign Russian territory, never bombed its people, poisoned its politicians, defenstrated its journalists or forced its population to speak Ukrainian or deny their nationality.

@Tamworthram - thank you for your kind comments, I do appreciate the sentiment in your comments and, like you, I'm always happy to listen to, and consider, the other side of the discussion. However, when we get to the stage where we have comments like the one above - which are just so flawed as to demonstrate next to zero understanding of what is going on and zero willingness to want to - I will continue to step back from this thread. With apologies!

[BaaLocks]

On 24/09/2022 at 09:58, Crewton said:

I hope we can all agree that the way to resolve disputes with your neighbours is through dialogue, using mediators where appropriate, and not shinning over their fence and sh*tting on their patio. Once you've done the latter, your justifications are meaningless. 

Or this one @Tamworthram - maybe a better version of is that your neighbour comes along and puts a fence across the corner of your garden then asks some American thugs to set up a tent up against the fence and then threaten to beat the crap out of you any time you get anywhere near it. And, every morning, you wake up to find that someone has dug up some more of your plants, even if the people you catch on your security camera actually live three towns away (or in America - if you're not following the analogy still).

Oh, and when I suggested dialogue and mediation was the way it was somehow me trying to push the agenda of Saint Putin.

So, thx but no thx - I'm in the place that there's just not much point talking to those who won't listen.

[Gone]

."We just love diving near underwater gas pipelines. Nord Stream 1 and 2 are famous". 

[ramesses]

[Ram-Alf]

[Ramarena]

So the plan is to annex the four regions tomorrow with a big ceremony in Red Square.

it’s going to be interesting as they don’t even control areas of the regions they are annexing.

[AndyinLiverpool]

9 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

So the plan is to annex the four regions tomorrow with a big ceremony in Red Square.

it’s going to be interesting as they don’t even control areas of the regions they are annexing.

Hence the mobilisation. They can 'justify' a full-on declaration of war.

[Comrade 86]

Stop the world please, I want to get off ?

[Alph]

We haven't seen the worst of it then

[Highgate]

And using the Kremlin's own twisted logic, Russia will consider Ukrainians fighting in the annexed regions with their western weapons as a direct attack on Russia itself.  Throughout the Cold War, Russia always maintained that's it's nuclear arsenal were strictly for self defence, only to be used in response to a direct attack on Russia.

These annexations are making Putin's nuclear threats seem all too real now.  

[1of4]

1 hour ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Stop the world please, I want to get off ?

Not sure how you'd achieve the second part but Putin is threatening to make the first part of your request a reality.

[Gone]

43 minutes ago, Highgate said:

And using the Kremlin's own twisted logic, Russia will consider Ukrainians fighting in the annexed regions with their western weapons as a direct attack on Russia itself.  Throughout the Cold War, Russia always maintained that's it's nuclear arsenal were strictly for self defence, only to be used in response to a direct attack on Russia.

These annexations are making Putin's nuclear threats seem all too real now.  

I really hope you’re wrong, but it seems a really plausible theory now ☹️

[Ramarena]

7 hours ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Hence the mobilisation. They can 'justify' a full-on declaration of war.

Indeed flood the area with Russians asap, doesn’t matter that they’ve not really been trained. 

He seems to need as many warm Russian bodies in the annexed regions as possible.

[ariotofmyown]

On 28/09/2022 at 09:16, Highgate said:

So, I'm sure to nobody's surprise Russian news agencies have announced that the 4 occupied regions of Ukraine (not including Crimea) have all opted to join Russia by massive margins in the recent referendums. 87% of those in Kherson, 93% in Zaporizhzhia, 98% in Luhansk and 99% of voters in Donetsk have opted to join Russia. 

That seems almost too conclusive, like it was fixed. Surely 75ish% would be a bit more realistic? Maybe it's a double bluff?

[Ramarena]

1 hour ago, ariotofmyown said:

That seems almost too conclusive, like it was fixed. Surely 75ish% would be a bit more realistic? Maybe it's a double bluff?

I’m in the process of a vote to annex Red Square so they can’t have their celebrations.

Preliminary results suggest 98.23% in favour of annexation on a 100% turnout!