The Ukraine War

[Tamworthram]

14 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

About 17 minutes in https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m00157td/unspun-world-with-john-simpson-series-1-09032022

I don’t think that changes anything I said in that whilst there may be an “element” (her word not mine) of anti western feeling, probably the predominant reason for not condemning Russia is because of their economic and military ties with Russia (it’s not a good idea to bite the hand that feeds you). If they actually supported Russia they could have voted with them (of course I do concede that some may have only abstained because they didn’t want to upset the west. That’s a bit of flaw in the system in that some countries may chose to abstain through fear or to protect military and trade ties rather than because they are genuinely undecided).
 

It’s quite telling that apart Eritrea and of course Belarus, only two other nations voted with Russia and those were those influential and highly respected nations of Syria and North Korea.

[BaaLocks]

1 hour ago, Tamworthram said:

It’s quite telling that apart Eritrea and of course Belarus, only two other nations voted with Russia and those were those influential and highly respected nations of Syria and North Korea.

There's not much (sic!) to support in Putin's actions though so I'd struggle to see how any nation could come out in favour - though the point that Russia is the largest arms provider to Africa is probably behind Eritrea's support. But a UN vote is anything but the final statement on what is actually happening. And even if many countries condemn what is happening in Ukraine there are many who will be looking at this as opportunity to open up some old wounds, not just in the influence of Russia (such as Armenia against Azerbaijan) but also those who see the chance to play the same card and have it hidden in a Jo Moore way. Myanmar is an example of that at the moment.

One point, which I do find really interesting, is the beatification of Zelensky in all of this. The West is doing what it always does, piling in on the side of the oppressed but missing the point that Ukraine is / was anything but the perfect child in all of this. Please do not confuse my statement to suggest that somehow they have asked for this or deserve this being done to them (I am not!). I am saying that we seem to have instantly forgotten all the issues around corruption in Ukraine, far right nationalists and all of that while we paint every available space blue and yellow.

I just wonder if in a few years we might look back and question if having Zelensky addressing the House Of Commons was exactly the line we wanted to take. I'm just minded of a comment a few pages back and football related - Celtic got fined for showing support to Palestine, yet it seems today you're more likely to get fined if you don't have a blue and yellow light show before the game.

Edited March 14, 2022 by BaaLocks

[Tamworthram]

18 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

There's not much (sic!) to support in Putin's actions though so I'd struggle to see how any nation could come out in favour - though the point that Russia is the largest arms provider to Africa is probably behind Eritrea's support. But a UN vote is anything but the final statement on what is actually happening. And even if many countries condemn what is happening in Ukraine there are many who will be looking at this as opportunity to open up some old wounds, not just in the influence of Russia (such as Armenia against Azerbaijan) but also those who see the chance to play the same card and have it hidden in a Jo Moore way. Myanmar is an example of that at the moment.

One point, which I do find really interesting, is the beatification of Zelensky in all of this. The West is doing what it always does, piling in on the side of the oppressed but missing the point that Ukraine is / was anything but the perfect child in all of this. Please do not confuse my statement to suggest that somehow they have asked for this or deserve this being done to them (I am not!). I am saying that we seem to have instantly forgotten all the issues around corruption in Ukraine, far right nationalists and all of that while we paint every available space blue and yellow.

I just wonder if in a few years we might look back and question if having Zelensky addressing the House Of Commons was exactly the line we wanted to take. I'm just minded of a comment a few pages back and football related - Celtic got fined for showing support to Palestine, yet it seems today you're more likely to get fined if you don't have a blue and yellow light show before the game.

I think you're probably right with regard to some nations watching the situation closely to see if they can take the opportunity to also achieve something. If Russia are seen to be weak and some states want to break away, this might be there chance from their sphere of influence. I'm not sure if there are any/many wanting to break away from the west. Certainly in Europe there seems to be more of a clamour to join the likes of NATO.

It's a valid point about the bad things that already existed in Ukraine. I really don't know if Zelensky was a reformer trying to stamp it out or turning a blind eye (it's difficult for anyone us to and avoid the shroud of propaganda hiding the truth) so I can't really comment.

It's a very good point regarding especially as the protests were fan led and not authorised. They fell foul of article 16 which forbids the use of "gestures, words, objects or other means to transmit any message that is not fit for a sports event, particularly messages that are of a political, ideological, religious, offensive or provocative nature". Whilst I support them, if the scenes of support for Ukraine at sporting events around Europe don't contravene that rule then I don't know what does. I guess the only difference is Celtic we're actually playing a team from Israel. 

[Stive Pesley]

3 hours ago, Archied said:

I read in a couple of places yesterday that some U.K. mp s are calling for an honorary knighthood for the Ukrainian president, how would that be perceived / spun ? Very much like ukrain is fighting the wests war for them , we really have some very dumb people running our country

They appointed someone to the House Of Lords whose father was in the KGB, and is almost certainly holding kompromat on our PM - so anything can happen with these idiots

[Eddie]

2 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

They appointed someone to the House Of Lords whose father was in the KGB, and is almost certainly holding kompromat on our PM - so anything can happen with these idiots

Filed under "Don't bite the hand that feeds you".

[Stive Pesley]

Meanwhile, activists have occupied the London house of one of the sanctioned oligarch's and nearly a dozen police vehicles have descended on the scene

Good luck to any of us who get our houses broken into receiving much more than a crime number and an apology.

As far as I can see all they have done is draped some banners out the window and called for it to be made available to Ukrainian refugees who have had their houses flattened.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60736583

[Ewetube]

Elon Musk has challenged Vladimir Putin to a duel for Ukraine.

 

[GboroRam]

3 minutes ago, Ewetube said:

Elon Musk has challenged Vladimir Putin to a duel for Ukraine.

 

Why do people put so much stay on what this one person has to say? Frankly it's mostly banal anyway.

[Ram-Alf]

30 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Meanwhile, activists have occupied the London house of one of the sanctioned oligarch's and nearly a dozen police vehicles have descended on the scene

Good luck to any of us who get our houses broken into receiving much more than a crime number and an apology.

As far as I can see all they have done is draped some banners out the window and called for it to be made available to Ukrainian refugees who have had their houses flattened.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60736583

If you're lucky enough to get through, Or an Officer on Duty maybe, And here they are below

[Ewetube]

3 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Why do people put so much stay on what this one person has to say? Frankly it's mostly banal anyway.

He has been trolling the Russians quite regularly, which is fine by me.

He has also been supportive of the Ukrainians by sending them starlink equipment, so I think he's probably done more to help than most.

[GboroRam]

6 minutes ago, Ewetube said:

He has been trolling the Russians quite regularly, which is fine by me.

He has also been supportive of the Ukrainians by sending them starlink equipment, so I think he's probably done more to help than most.

I don't mind his help, but some people fall over his every word. 

[Grumpy Git]

16 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

If you're lucky enough to get through, Or an Officer on Duty maybe, And here they are below

Aye, imagine how many of Derbyshire's finest would turn-up if the house was in Chad?

Have a look at how much of your Council Tax goes to the local plod when the new bill arrives soon, (for them to tell you they're too busy to come out when you need them)?

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, GboroRam said:

I don't mind his help, but some people fall over his every word. 

I agree - but I'm more concerned as to what happens if he loses. 

Trained ex-KGB operative vs Silicon Valley nerd

I know who my money is on ?

[Comrade 86]

2 hours ago, Ewetube said:

Elon Musk has challenged Vladimir Putin to a duel for Ukraine.

 

Can someone stop the world please? Time for me to jump off.

[Tamworthram]

4 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Can someone stop the world please? Time for me to jump off.

You could always book a seat on the Elon Musk SpaceX Starship ?

[Comrade 86]

11 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

You could always book a seat on the Elon Musk SpaceX Starship ?

Maybe we could stick all the world leaders on one instead, along with Elon himself, of course! 

 

[BaaLocks]

1 hour ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Maybe we could stick all the world leaders on one instead, along with Elon himself, of course! 

 

Isn't that the latest Numan advert?

[StantonRam]

Dear esteemed colleagues

I beg you, do not be fooled by Kremlin propaganda about supposed "far right nationalists".  They exist, as they do everywhere, but they are a tiny minority and receive very few votes in elections.  And having said that, would we accept our whole country being bombed by a foreign power on the grounds that they wanted to liquidate the Burnley branch of the BNP?  I think not.

Ukraine is a 30 year old imperfect democracy.  It has no more corruption than Russia does, but unlike Russia, where the Mafia run the government, it has been trying to do something about it.  It took the Italian government a century to finally get on top of the Mafia.

Don't be fooled by Kremlin apologists PLEASE.  Have the Ukraine government made mistakes in recent years?  Yes.  Could they have played a cleverer game vis a vis Putin?  Undoubtedly.  However, be under no illusions, the historical parallels are uncanny:

October 1938 - Hitler gets the Sudetenland and the west colludes in the betrayal of the Czechs: 2014 - Putin illegally annexes Crimea and sends his thugs into the Donbas and the west colludes in the betrayal of the Ukrainians

March 1939 - Hitler takes the rest of Czechoslovakia: 2022 - Putin invades Ukraine

late 1939 - Russia invades Finland and gets it's arse kicked by the outnumbered Finns: 2022 Russian invades Ukraine and gets it's arse kicked by the outnumbered Ukrainians

In the interests of full disclosure - I have been to Ukraine many times, I have friends there, I have sent money there, and I have offered accommodation to fleeing Ukrainians if they need it.  I'm not saying what anyone else should do, it's none of my business.  But facts are facts!

Zelinsky - he is their Churchill, he could have b******d off but he didn't, and he knows that if the Russians find him they will kill him.  Who on here would have the balls to do that?  Only if you would do the same for your country should you pass judgement.

And please, do not swallow Putin's lies and look away on the basis of "but what about?" type stuff.  The time for all that has passed.  This is an illegal invasion of a European democracy, and if we allow Putin to triumph then who will be next - Poland?  The Hitler playbook would suggest that this might well be the case, as Putin's ambitions to reconstruct the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact are very well documented in the public domain.

Thanks for reading this far if you have.

 

[SSD]

https://mixmag.net/read/landlord-serves-eviction-notice-to-russian-owners-of-la-record-shop-stellar-remnant-news

I hope this was just an isolated incident but being the US, this sadly doesn't surprise me. The way people treated the Muslim community because of terrorism in the Middle East was a disgrace. I really hope the public can leave Russian people in their local area alone and treat them the same. Just because their place of birth has a tyrant leader doesn't mean they're all of a sudden evil.

[Eddie]

2 hours ago, SouthStandDan said:

https://mixmag.net/read/landlord-serves-eviction-notice-to-russian-owners-of-la-record-shop-stellar-remnant-news

I hope this was just an isolated incident but being the US, this sadly doesn't surprise me. The way people treated the Muslim community because of terrorism in the Middle East was a disgrace. I really hope the public can leave Russian people in their local area alone and treat them the same. Just because their place of birth has a tyrant leader doesn't mean they're all of a sudden evil.

Knee-jerk reactions are as inevitable as they are regrettable.

I was working in Birmingham at the time of the pub bombings there and later at the London Stock Exchange at the time of a number of the atrocities in the capital (one of the targets being the building I was working in at the time).

I'm sure I wasn't the only person to immediately adopt (and voice) anti-Irish feelings.