The Ukraine War

[cstand]

7 minutes ago, WhiteHorseRam said:

I am now thinking this subject isn't right for a football forum. I fully understand @David's reticence.

Thousands of people are dying. I have composed some long responses to posters based on my own knowledge -  stared at them - and deleted. 

This is the most dangerous moment I have witnessed in my lifetime. I don't want to arguing with FunkyRam819 as Norwich goes up in smoke.

 

I think we need to move on from the why has Putin invaded Russia onto what is the best solution to an awful problem.
I think I agree with Baalocks at the moment unless anyone has a better idea.

This first round has gone to Ukraine but a 40 mile line of tanks is a different matter.

Give egotistical maniac the victory he craves and negotiate some kind of deal play the long game. 

[Leeds Ram]

10 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

I hope you've spell-checked your thesis

haha I have, I should not have been multi tasking... 

[BaaLocks]

37 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

Ukraine was defining its own future, well thats until they were invaded by another country. 

If as you say Ukraine should surrender to save lives. Then play the long game to gain their freedom and the ability to devine their own future. But haven't Ukraine already been through this process, gaining these rights as an independent country with the break up of the Soviet Union.

Which bit of Ukraine are you referring to that was defining it's own futher? The part given to the Ukranian Soviet Socialist Republic as a present from Khruschev in the Soviet times? The bit added on by Stalin when taken from Hungary? The part from Poland? Or the part that joined on the break up of the Austro-Hungarian empire? Or maybe the islands 'given' to Ukraine by Romania?

I don't debate Ukraine has been invaded but if you think it has been a homogenous state with clear borders defined by the ages then I'm sorry to disabuse you of that opinion. It doesn't make the invasion right but it does help understand the thinking of those who also have claim to it - the same way both the UK and Argentina have claim to the Falklands, the way Mauritius and UK have claim to the Chagos islands, the way Spain and UK both believe Gibraltar is theirs. Nobody is at war over those, I grant you, but they are disputed and the world is not so simple that every corner of the world is clearly defined.

[Stive Pesley]

@BaaLocks - are you aware of this book?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

It's said by some to be Putin's inspiration - and for saying it written in 1997, a lot of the aims look to have been ticked off already

Interesting stuff

[Alph]

3 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

The good old, they're doing it, so I can do it too, argument

As for calling  other posters trolls for suggesting people are finding reasons to justify Putins actions.

Well call me a troll.

There is no justifiable reason for the invasion of Ukraine.

Oh my god, it's like you've not read the thread at all

No justification on anything. I'm bored of saying it. I'm saying civilian deaths are part of war. There are videos of Ukranian/Russian civilians being killed by Ukranian civilian militias. There are no clean wars. 

I didn't call you a troll, did I? I'm 100% sure I didn't 

Must have condemned the invasion a hundred times. 

It's like you've joined a debate and caught the end of it but not interested in what has previously been posted in regards to NATO expansion, western hypocrisy, the actions in East Ukraine.

Nobody approved the invasion. But there is some debate on whether Putin has a right to feel threatened and whether he's served Russian people well. 

There are comparisons to be made to how the west reacts to "threats on freedom" to put Putin's position into context. Not to support his invasion

It's all in the thread. You can come in stamping your size 10's pretending stuff has been said that hasn't. 

I pointed out Western and American killing civilians because there are no wars where innocents don't suffer. That's it. That's war. Whether I agree with the war or not is not even relevant since I only responded to your point on the Russians killing Ukranian civilians. 

I've seen a video of 2 Ukranian guys dragging a civilian out of a car and beating him then shooting him dead? Does that reflect on Ukraine? No, that's what happens in war because its a great opportunity for scum of every race and religion to commit crimes too

[BaaLocks]

17 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

You can't compare Scotland, Catalonia, and Putin's Russia tbh. You may be able to make a broad comparison with China but those  nations don't have anywhere close to the same domestic political instruments as Russia.

Like you I'm not interested in an internet sparring match either. Personally, I just think you've misread the situation overall. This isn't just about Ukraine, just like South Odessa wasn't just about Georgia and Syria wasn't about defeating Islamic State. whilst you may have a valid argument about Russians in general believing Ukraine is a part of Russia (which from what I've read is a little mixed) this is not the same as Putin's ambitions. As he's previously stated, you can never take the KGB out the man, so I think reading this as a part of 'getting back Russian land' is buying Putin's explanation that is instead masking rather malevolent interests. 

He's been on a decade old power trip to expand Russia's sphere of influence and territorial ambitions. It's got nothing to do with reuniting ethnic Russians or taking back territory that is presumed as being Russian. 

The Russian forces are showing themselves to be outdated and quite blunt. The Ukrainians seem to be limiting the Russian advance with heavy losses of both men and material for Russia. Ultimately, Russia is a country with a GDP similar to Italy... this is no longer a superpower but an aggressive regional power acting completely out of bounds.  Yes, the sheer force of numbers they can use means Ukraine may loose but if sufficient losses can be inflicted on Russia and economic sanctions hit hard enough it will stop his larger territorial ambitions in the region. If this turned into an urban insurgency then the end result would likely be a Russian withdrawal in the end. 

 I would add with almost every aggressive Russian action in the past decade there has been negotiation and compromise... it has led us here. Further 'diplomatic' attempts will see another crisis of this sort appear in the near future. It's time that he's made to pay a significant price for his actions that may make him reconsider if this or future ventures are such a good idea. 

FWIW I agree with pretty much all of that - except the bit that I have misread the situation but you're entitled to your opinion ?. I also don't agree that Ukraine are showing Russian forces to be blunt, I just think they haven't been fully unleashed yet - which is the most scary part of all.

[BaaLocks]

3 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

@BaaLocks - are you aware of this book?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

It's said by some to be Putin's inspiration - and for saying it written in 1997, a lot of the aims look to have been ticked off already

Interesting stuff

No, not seen that but thx for the link. Tim Marshall's Prisoners Of Geography is a good read on this, various parts of the world analyzed in short chapters that even someone with my limited attention span can manage. Well worth it.

[Leeds Ram]

1 minute ago, BaaLocks said:

FWIW I agree with pretty much all of that - except the bit that I have misread the situation but you're entitled to your opinion ?. I also don't agree that Ukraine are showing Russian forces to be blunt, I just think they haven't been fully unleashed yet - which is the most scary part of all.

Yeah that's totally fair I wouldn't expect you to think you've misread the situation ? I think given that Russia has put in some elite units with tank divisions and a significant presence backing them up it's highlighted significant problems in the military operation. This is a reliable account I've been a fan of for a long time and he highlights these issues better than I can. 
 

 

[Highgate]

4 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

Which bit of Ukraine are you referring to that was defining it's own futher? The part given to the Ukranian Soviet Socialist Republic as a present from Khruschev in the Soviet times? The bit added on by Stalin when taken from Hungary? The part from Poland? Or the part that joined on the break up of the Austro-Hungarian empire? Or maybe the islands 'given' to Ukraine by Romania?

I don't debate Ukraine has been invaded but if you think it has been a homogenous state with clear borders defined by the ages then I'm sorry to disabuse you of that opinion. It doesn't make the invasion right but it does help understand the thinking of those who also have claim to it - the same way both the UK and Argentina have claim to the Falklands, the way Mauritius and UK have claim to the Chagos islands, the way Spain and UK both believe Gibraltar is theirs. Nobody is at war over those, I grant you, but they are disputed and the world is not so simple that every corner of the world is clearly defined.

True....but you can say that about most countries really.  The US for example....there is that bit that won it's independence from Britain, the part that was bought from France...the parts stolen from Native Americans (arguably all of it), the part annexed from Mexico, the part bought from Spain, the part annexed from Pacific Islanders, the part bought from Russia against Canada's consent.  And a similar story could be told for pretty much every country.  Nations, borders and nationalities are all made up really.  They are important for our sense of identity sure...but we shouldn't forget that they are all largely a figment of our collective imaginations. In this Ukraine is no different from other countries, so I can't see how Putin can use the fact to legitimize an invasion.  Although you might be right in thinking that's part of his mindset.

[ramit]

RT and Sputnik banned in Europe and on YouTube.  Anyone expressing pro Russian opinions to be imprisoned in Czech Republic and Slovakia.  France declares economic war on Russia.  Finland being fast tracked into Nato, Ukraine into EU.  12 Russian diplomats declared persona non grata at the UN.

Interesting times

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by ramit
typo

[cstand]

5 minutes ago, ramit said:

RT and Sputnik banned in Europe and on YouTube.  Anyone expressing pro Russian opinions to be imprisoned in Czech Republic and Slovakia.  France declares economic war on Russia.  Finland being fast tracked into Nato, Ukraine into EU.  12 Russian diplomats declared persona non grata at the UN.

Interesting times

 

Scary times

[Tamworthram]

9 minutes ago, ramit said:

RT and Sputnik banned in Europe and on YouTube.  Anyone expressing pro Russian opinions to be imprisoned in Czech Republic and Slovakia.  France declares economic war on Russia.  Finland being fast tracked into Nato, Ukraine into EU.  12 Russian diplomats declared persona non grata at the UN.

Interesting times

 

Finland haven't even said they want to join NATO yet have they? 

[cstand]

Margo Willis estates at West Hallam are taking in donations until the 4th March just dropped off items we had for shoebox appeal before covid.

[cstand]

2 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Finland haven't even said they want to join NATO yet have they? 

Think Finland have sent arms to the Ukraine so could be Putins next target.

[ramit]

7 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

Finland haven't even said they want to join NATO yet have they? 

Their parliament is debating it today.  They have been moving closer to Nato in recent years.  There is already a warning response from Russia on the matter, so it is being discussed seriously.  Perhaps not a done deal yet, but as good as IMO.

[BaaLocks]

Or "Russian tanks choose not to kill civilians in cold blood" - freedom fighter or terrorist / suicide bomber or jihadist. If you've written a PhD thesis you're surely smart enough to see that?

[Tamworthram]

1 minute ago, ramit said:

Their parliament is debating it today.  They have been moving closer to Nato in recent years.  There is already a warning response from Russia on the matter, so it is being discussed seriously.  Perhaps not a done deal yet, but as good as IMO.

I saw they were debating it today however, I do wonder if they really would be fast tracked. They might well be Russia's next target but, if they were admitted and then attacked it would force NATO's hand and result in full scale war between NATO and Russia. NATO and the west (as well as other parts of the world) might prefer to defeat Russia and/or deter them from taking any further action by way of sanctions. Even if Ukraine falls I'm sure sanctions, the likes of which have never been seen before, will remain in place and possibly further enhanced. I'm no economics expert but I do wonder how long Russia can withstand the economic pressures they must be under.

[Stive Pesley]

6 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

Or "Russian tanks choose not to kill civilians in cold blood" - freedom fighter or terrorist / suicide bomber or jihadist. If you've written a PhD thesis you're surely smart enough to see that?

Isn't this a big problem for an invading army though - having troops who don't really get why they are there and have no appetite for killing those who resist their invasion?

[BaaLocks]

22 minutes ago, ramit said:

Interesting times

Reports from some countries that Russian citizens are being abused and harrassed in the street, similar reports coming in from around the world.

I agree, interesting times.

[cstand]

Edited March 1, 2022 by cstand