The Ukraine War

[Tamworthram]

5 hours ago, Crewton said:

From the very start, Russia has attacked Ukraine far beyond the territories it claims as Russian, even trying to capture Kyev. It's flattened Ukrainian cities near the border of the disputed territory with no regard for civilians of every age. But Ukraine mustn't invade land along the border in order to relieve pressure on it's troops further south who are fighting wave after wave of russian attacks?

You talk of "two wrongs not making a right", but how many wrongs has Russia committed against Ukraine? Has Ukraine started kidnapping and brainwashing russian children yet? I don't think so.

Critics seem to be asking Ukraine to fight with one hand behind its back in a war it neither started or wanted. How is that fair?

The consensus on here seems to be that Ukraine should sue for peace and take whatever Putin will grudgingly allow it, including forever remaining a vassal state that would eventually see the complete erosion of Ukrainian culture and identity. Why would any sovereign peoples accept that?

I’m not sure that’s the consensus view on this forum.

It’s certainly not my view but then most of us are sitting in the relative safety of the UK. The people that really matter are the armed forces and civilians of Ukraine. To continue the fight is an easier option to favour when it’s not our loved ones being sent to the front line and/or killed.

Edited August 13 by Tamworthram

[Archied]

1 hour ago, Tamworthram said:

I’m not sure that’s the consensus view on this forum.

It’s certainly not my view but then most of us are sitting in the relative safety of the UK. The people that really matter are the armed forces and civilians of Ukraine. To continue the fight is an easier option to favour when it’s not our loved ones being sent to the front line and/or killed.

That’s kind of where I am , it’s not us our children who are doing the dieing,

im gonna be labelled selfish when I say I certainly wouldn’t / don’t want my son to be fighting and losing his life in a war over Ukraine territory which is at best a regional conflict that has been going on in one form or another for a long time and let’s be honest if things are handled clumsily and in a gung ho ,tub thumping fashion from a distance this could very very easily become our war with our children in the thick of it 

Edited August 13 by Archied

[GboroRam]

Is there a benefit to Ukraine in attacking Russia? 

One possibility is that by causing some attention at home, maybe the Russian people will start to question their leader a little more? Putting pressure on Putin at home may make political impact. 

Not saying it'll happen, mind. 

[Archied]

2 hours ago, GboroRam said:

Is there a benefit to Ukraine in attacking Russia? 

One possibility is that by causing some attention at home, maybe the Russian people will start to question their leader a little more? Putting pressure on Putin at home may make political impact. 

Not saying it'll happen, mind. 

Certainly a consideration though it could go the other way and bring out more support in Russians wanting to crush Ukraine, I can obviously see reasons for the move in military terms it just worries me where that puts us and the west in terms of arming Ukraine in moves into Russia , it certainly has a different slant to arming them to defend they’re territory and people , I honestly don’t know the answers but things are certainly going down a very dangerous road

[Eddie]

12 hours ago, Comrade 86 said:

Holy moly. I'm not advocating anything so you can climb down off your high horse. I'm as pissed at the Russians as anyone too. I simply asked what Ukraine felt they stood to gain and for some reason you feel the need to jump in two footed.

I'll leave you to it then, shall I! 😂

Two words.

Bargaining.

Chips.

[Highgate]

I don't have any moral issue with Ukraine invading Russia. Once Russia declares war by invading Ukraine, then retaliating by attacking Russia itself became a legitimate thing for Ukraine to do, as long as they target Russian military assets and not the general Russian population.  

Whether it's a good idea strategically is another question entirely.  It's certainly a bold move, but it's a risky one. I don't think Ukraine has the numbers to be able to hold Russian territory for a long period of time, at least that would be require a huge commitment of men and equipment that Ukraine can scarcely afford..so I don't think they will be able to use this captured territory as a bargaining chip to exchange for some of those areas of Ukraine captured by Russia.

Making Putin look weak?  It certainly does...but will that matter?  What can the Russian people do even if they don't like how Putin is conducting the war.  

I think the biggest benefit might be that Russia will realize that it's entire border with Ukraine needs to be far more heavily defended at all times and with higher quality troops.  This, over time, will reduce Russia's ability to pour men and material into their grinding advance in the Donbas area.  We haven't seen any troops being pulled away from their yet, I believe... but it may happen when Russia realizes just how vulnerable their border is. Russia/Putin tends to make decisions slowly. That might be Ukraine's hope anyway. 

That and this attack proves to a lot of doubters in the West that Ukraine is far from a spent force, with little option but to look for a negotiated settlement with Russia (that would see them lose a lot of their territory).  I think there is a hope within Ukraine's leadership that this invasion of Russia may reinvigorate the West to support Ukraine further.   

 

[Animal is a Ram]

I'm not sure how much damage it does to Putin's standing within Russia's Joe Public. Those loyal will explain their way around it.

I find it interesting that reports suggest that Ukrainian forces are trying to do as little damage to civilian property as is possible, which is a stark contrast to the destruction seen in Ukraine.

[GboroRam]

1 minute ago, Animal is a Ram said:

I'm not sure how much damage it does to Putin's standing within Russia's Joe Public. Those loyal will explain their way around it.

I find it interesting that reports suggest that Ukrainian forces are trying to do as little damage to civilian property as is possible, which is a stark contrast to the destruction seen in Ukraine.

No, I can't believe it has made a lot of changes in Russian public opinion. But I suppose unless something happens, nothing will change. 

I'm also not sure Russia has the capability to launch a major offensive in the fashion they would have you believe. They've lost a lot of their capability in the offensive so far. I can't imagine they are throwing criminals at the front line unless they are running low on options. 

[Ram-Alf]

1 hour ago, GboroRam said:

No, I can't believe it has made a lot of changes in Russian public opinion. But I suppose unless something happens, nothing will change. 

I'm also not sure Russia has the capability to launch a major offensive in the fashion they would have you believe. They've lost a lot of their capability in the offensive so far. I can't imagine they are throwing criminals at the front line unless they are running low on options. 

Not sure how much is true...but it's figures anyroad, If you can pull a trigger or throw a grenade...sign here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_fighters_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War

[Tamworthram]

2 hours ago, Animal is a Ram said:

I'm not sure how much damage it does to Putin's standing within Russia's Joe Public. Those loyal will explain their way around it.

I find it interesting that reports suggest that Ukrainian forces are trying to do as little damage to civilian property as is possible, which is a stark contrast to the destruction seen in Ukraine.

Whilst I suspect this to be true, we mustn’t ignore the power of propaganda.

[Ram-Alf]

https://news.sky.com/story/ukrainian-soldiers-in-kursk-say-they-hope-incursion-will-wake-up-russians-to-realities-of-war-13196857

[Ramarena]

On 12/08/2024 at 18:47, Comrade 86 said:

Can someone explain to me why Ukraine has now invaded Russia? Seems to me that two wrongs don't make a right and it undermines a good deal of Zelensky's criticisms of Putin, which before I get jumped on, I share.

What I don't get is how this benefits anyone. It seems to me to be a very dangerous game of brinkmanship as I don't share people's confidence that Putin would not resort to the use of tactical nukes. If he does nothing, then he's finished IMO, so what do Ukraine hope to gain? It has the feel of a very unsubtle proxy war to me and it worries me. Cornered animals will fight, after all.

Ukraine are stuck in a war of attrition.

Trench warfare does not suit Ukraines quasi Nato armed forces, which is much better suited to mobile combined arms, as we are seeing with this incursion.

Russia are sending huge numbers of men to die in infantry assaults backed by glide bombs, this is yielding small wins for them, in certain areas of Donbas they are getting into the teens M2 taken on a daily basis. 

Ukraine had to do something different to ease the pressure on their defensive units. Attacking the current frontline was not an option, as its heavily fortified and mined as we saw with their last counter offensive which petered out when the hit the Surovikin line and surrounding minefields.

This is one of the few options Ukraine had left that could alter the dynamics of the war, away from a grinding stalemate. Can’t blame them really. 

We don’t know what their overall plan is, it’s been suggested this is one element of a wide ranging strategy.

I also don’t understand why people are concerned with provoking Russia. This is a country that has killed many Ukrainians and destroyed large areas of Ukraine, why would Ukraine pussyfoot around them?

 

[Ramarena]

On 14/08/2024 at 08:55, Highgate said:

I don't have any moral issue with Ukraine invading Russia. Once Russia declares war by invading Ukraine, then retaliating by attacking Russia itself became a legitimate thing for Ukraine to do, as long as they target Russian military assets and not the general Russian population.  

Whether it's a good idea strategically is another question entirely.  It's certainly a bold move, but it's a risky one. I don't think Ukraine has the numbers to be able to hold Russian territory for a long period of time, at least that would be require a huge commitment of men and equipment that Ukraine can scarcely afford..so I don't think they will be able to use this captured territory as a bargaining chip to exchange for some of those areas of Ukraine captured by Russia.

Making Putin look weak?  It certainly does...but will that matter?  What can the Russian people do even if they don't like how Putin is conducting the war.  

I think the biggest benefit might be that Russia will realize that it's entire border with Ukraine needs to be far more heavily defended at all times and with higher quality troops.  This, over time, will reduce Russia's ability to pour men and material into their grinding advance in the Donbas area.  We haven't seen any troops being pulled away from their yet, I believe... but it may happen when Russia realizes just how vulnerable their border is. Russia/Putin tends to make decisions slowly. That might be Ukraine's hope anyway. 

That and this attack proves to a lot of doubters in the West that Ukraine is far from a spent force, with little option but to look for a negotiated settlement with Russia (that would see them lose a lot of their territory).  I think there is a hope within Ukraine's leadership that this invasion of Russia may reinvigorate the West to support Ukraine further.   

 

I believe they’ve sent three battalions recently. One that was nearby and the other two from Donbas, which is strange as it’s so far away.

[Highgate]

53 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

I believe they’ve sent three battalions recently. One that was nearby and the other two from Donbas, which is strange as it’s so far away.

Good news for the Ukrainian troops in the Donbas then. It's definitely good to keep Russia guessing as to what Ukraine might do next.

[Ramarena]

37 minutes ago, Highgate said:

Good news for the Ukrainian troops in the Donbas then. It's definitely good to keep Russia guessing as to what Ukraine might do next.

Indeed, getting Russia to play whack a mole around the incursion could be a good ploy and great use of their military assets. 
 

forgot to mention, the troops from Donbas were reserves, so Ukraine won’t see the effect until they were due to be deployed/rotated into the Donbas front line.

Edited August 15 by Ramarena

[Ram-Alf]

I've just watched Klitschko-More Than A Fight...on Sky.

How on earth Can Ukraine hope to win/repel Russia if Klitschko and Valenskyy do not like each other one wants a Democracy while the other wants a centralised Government.

Some harrowing scenes in Kyiv, Some honest things said but when you have 2 powerful people want the same but different ways to get it can only lead to a split in the citizens of Ukraine...imo

A must see if you have Sky 👍 

[Alph]

35 minutes ago, Ram-Alf said:

I've just watched Klitschko-More Than A Fight...on Sky.

How on earth Can Ukraine hope to win/repel Russia if Klitschko and Valenskyy do not like each other one wants a Democracy while the other wants a centralised Government.

Some harrowing scenes in Kyiv, Some honest things said but when you have 2 powerful people want the same but different ways to get it can only lead to a split in the citizens of Ukraine...imo

A must see if you have Sky 👍 

I watched this the other day. Didn’t realise that Vitali and Zelensky had refused to be even in the same room. I swear I saw pictures of Zelensky and the Klitschko’s together. Guess not. 
 

I’m assuming both will be flirting with America as hard as possible to try and get that advantage. 
 

Being a boxing fan I just enjoyed seeing the Klitschko brothers in their daily lives during such a crisis. Vitali still zero emotion and a towering figure of strength. Looks like he could turn Russian forces around all by himself. Yet Zelensky makes fun of him for being slow!! 

I was nearly sick at some of the childhood stories about how great America is. It was like George Galloway acting like a cat in Big Brother. Eurgh! 
 

The Klitschko’s saw straight through Don King! Loved that!!
 

[Ram-Alf]

10 hours ago, Alph said:

I watched this the other day. Didn’t realise that Vitali and Zelensky had refused to be even in the same room. I swear I saw pictures of Zelensky and the Klitschko’s together. Guess not. 
 

I’m assuming both will be flirting with America as hard as possible to try and get that advantage. 
 

Being a boxing fan I just enjoyed seeing the Klitschko brothers in their daily lives during such a crisis. Vitali still zero emotion and a towering figure of strength. Looks like he could turn Russian forces around all by himself. Yet Zelensky makes fun of him for being slow!! 

I was nearly sick at some of the childhood stories about how great America is. It was like George Galloway acting like a cat in Big Brother. Eurgh! 
 

The Klitschko’s saw straight through Don King! Loved that!!
 

It only went up to the Summer of 23...so we could have done🤷‍♂️

The USA are more concerned about how free would Ukraine be rather than who's the leader out of Klitschko/Zelenskyy

Memories are great, I forgot how brutal they both were, Vitali would have beaten Lennox if it hadn't have been stopped with that huge cut above his left eye, No wonder Lewis retired after 😉

The consumer is king in the USA, It's not a case of a child waking up in a sweet shop, It's a child waking up in a factory, They never had a drink of Coke before...they loved it, When they came back home and told their Father he said...don't believe this it's only one state, How one Country can brainwash practically a whole Country aye, The USA has it's faults in many ways but when it comes to the consumer...fecking wow😋 

Don King lol, It took Mike Tyson a few years to see through King(the murderer)when he gave him a beating for short changing him, A man of many talents...he could even play the piano...pmsl 

Last bit, The Ukrainian boy aged about 5/6 at the end when he asked his Mum who was that that was killed...wow I nearly broke down a Girl of the same age 😪 

 

[Alph]

2 hours ago, Ram-Alf said:

It only went up to the Summer of 23...so we could have done🤷‍♂️

The USA are more concerned about how free would Ukraine be rather than who's the leader out of Klitschko/Zelenskyy

Memories are great, I forgot how brutal they both were, Vitali would have beaten Lennox if it hadn't have been stopped with that huge cut above his left eye, No wonder Lewis retired after 😉

The consumer is king in the USA, It's not a case of a child waking up in a sweet shop, It's a child waking up in a factory, They never had a drink of Coke before...they loved it, When they came back home and told their Father he said...don't believe this it's only one state, How one Country can brainwash practically a whole Country aye, The USA has it's faults in many ways but when it comes to the consumer...fecking wow😋 

Don King lol, It took Mike Tyson a few years to see through King(the murderer)when he gave him a beating for short changing him, A man of many talents...he could even play the piano...pmsl 

Last bit, The Ukrainian boy aged about 5/6 at the end when he asked his Mum who was that that was killed...wow I nearly broke down a Girl of the same age 😪 

 

Lewis v Vitali is one of my all time favourite fights and probably the one that cements Lewis, imo, as the greatest heavyweight in history. 
He raked at that cut with the laces of his gloves and did everything he could to exploit the one weakness Vitali had in that fight because Vitali just kept coming and coming. Lewis had to find a way and he did. I fully understand why he wouldn’t go through that again. 
Vitali legacy is kind of overshadowed by Wlad but imagine if he’d hoovered up the titles first. Wlad is a legend but Vitali was more frightening. Still intimidating now

 

yeah there were a few scenes that make you feel a bit sick. When you imagine it being your children cowering in basements not knowing what tomorrow brings … It’s all just horrific. War is horrific and I love it when the reality of it is plain for all to see. It’s like TV and Movies have glamourised it to the point people sit too comfortable with it and see past the harsh reality. 

[Ram-Alf]

Sad very sad 😪

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj35lk4x86yo