A question of debt

[Macintosh]

I've seen £60m and £50m banded about regarding how much debt we are in, but, having several times had companies go bust on me and start up again, how little of the debt actually does get paid, and twice I worked at a company that was resurrected by a Phoenix agreement, do those that are in the know, supporters' groups that have been to meetings, have an actual ballpark figure?

The Dell loan (now £18m?) I presume is Mel's, not Derby's, which was to pay off the previous loan for buying Pride Park the second time around. The HMRC debt of £28m?, they always do a deal, a percentage, and I'd be surprised if they ended up with much more than half. The Bielik debt is in stages, future payments, and similar with Jozwiak, that possibly only adds up to £2-3m combined presently due. Money that has to be paid to the EFL for fines will be deferred against money due from TV rights, Keogh, I might be wrong, but I think there is an appeal due with that in January? and then we have legal bills and administrator's costs, that will be approaching £5m I'd have thought. The government will pay for redundancies, and the smaller debtors, non-football related will, as usual, whistle for what they were owed. Wayne is probably due some and bonuses that never got paid to players. Just the banks left?

Could it be as little as £20m a potential new owner has to find? The supporters' groups were given 30 days to make an offer, they must have figures and give us a hint.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Macintosh
Can't spell for toffee

[The Key Club King]

1 minute ago, Macintosh said:

I've seen £60m and £50m banded about regarding how much debt we are in, but, having several times had companies go bust on me and start up again, how little of the debt actually does get paid, and twice I worked at a company that was resurrected by a Phoenix agreement, do those that are in the know, supporters' groups that have been to meetings, have an actual ballpark figure?

The Dell loan (now £18m?) I presume is Mel's, not Derby's, which was to pay off the previous loan for buying Pride Park the second time around. The HMRC debt of £28m?, they always do a deal, a percentage, and I'd be surprised if they ended up with much more than half. The Bielik debt is in stages, future payments, and similar with Jozwiak, that possibly only adds up to £2-3m combined presently due. Money that has to be paid to the EFL for fines will be deferred against money due from TV rights, Keogh, I might be wrong, but I think there is an appeal due with that in January? and then we have legal bills and administrator's costs, that will be approaching £5m I'd have thought. The government will pay for redundancies and the smaller debtors, non-football related will, as usual, whistle for what they were owned. Wayne is probably due some and bonuses that never got paid to players. Just the banks left?

Could it be as little as £20m a potential new owner has to find? The supporters' groups were given 30 days to make an offer, they must have figures and give us a hint.

I've been thinking about this too. I don't know what the debt will turn out to be, but the interest in the club and the confidence of the Administrators in it being sold lead me to one question:

What is it that makes us a good investment?

We've probably not been consistently profitable since, well probably all throughout my 40 years of support.

[Dean (hick) Saunders]

Any investment makes sense to me only with the aim of achieving PL as the end point.

If you were buying purely to exist in Champ then it makes no sense at all.

Depends a bit on where you think future EFL rules will end up to as well. (Bit like the situation within F1 where they are trying to level the field more with regulation).

If they manage to get new rules reducing the advantage of relegated clubs then it is likely to help rejuvenated clubs with high revenue (season tickets and commercial) streams which I would hope us to be.

[kevinhectoring]

On 06/11/2021 at 11:54, Macintosh said:

I've seen £60m and £50m banded about regarding how much debt we are in, but, having several times had companies go bust on me and start up again, how little of the debt actually does get paid, and twice I worked at a company that was resurrected by a Phoenix agreement, do those that are in the know, supporters' groups that have been to meetings, have an actual ballpark figure?

The Dell loan (now £18m?) I presume is Mel's, not Derby's, which was to pay off the previous loan for buying Pride Park the second time around. The HMRC debt of £28m?, they always do a deal, a percentage, and I'd be surprised if they ended up with much more than half. The Bielik debt is in stages, future payments, and similar with Jozwiak, that possibly only adds up to £2-3m combined presently due. Money that has to be paid to the EFL for fines will be deferred against money due from TV rights, Keogh, I might be wrong, but I think there is an appeal due with that in January? and then we have legal bills and administrator's costs, that will be approaching £5m I'd have thought. The government will pay for redundancies, and the smaller debtors, non-football related will, as usual, whistle for what they were owed. Wayne is probably due some and bonuses that never got paid to players. Just the banks left?

Could it be as little as £20m a potential new owner has to find? The supporters' groups were given 30 days to make an offer, they must have figures and give us a hint.

The admins are confident of a sale. If there is a sale, does it matter at all how much debt there was ? 

[i-Ram]

45 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

The admins are confident of a sale. If there is a sale, does it matter at all how much debt there was ? 

Yes if your a creditor. A lot of small businesses are going to suffer.

[Rev]

27 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Yes if your a creditor. A lot of small businesses are going to suffer.

I wonder what the amount saved by administration will be, after the bills that have to be paid in full are settled? 

We know we have to pay football creditors in full, along with MSD, then the taxman takes his share, before we get to the unsecured creditors, including Mel, I assume.

Hypothetical situation here, but could we pay everyone in full, besides Mel, and avoid the 12 point penalty altogether, after all we'd have gained no advantage from Administration, and the only person missing out would be the reckless former owner?

How much extra would that cost, and would it be worth paying to avoid the 12 point deduction?

 

 

[Rab a dab doo]

If we had that much (spare) money in kitty in the first place why didn't Mel pay everyone up who was owed money bar himself.

Then graceful offered the club 'debit free' with no point deductions to someone (trustworthy) who could take the club on. ??????

[kevinhectoring]

1 hour ago, i-Ram said:

Yes if your a creditor. A lot of small businesses are going to suffer.

I think we all have sympathy for the creditors and employees who have been caught in the cross fire between MM and the EFL. But the poster I was replying to was commenting from the perspective of the club, and so was I 

[europia]

On 06/11/2021 at 13:00, The Key Club King said:

 

What is it that makes us a good investment?

 

Truth is, we aren't. Ditto the majority of pro football clubs. 

[mike93rh]

18 hours ago, Rev said:

Hypothetical situation here, but could we pay everyone in full, besides Mel, and avoid the 12 point penalty altogether, after all we'd have gained no advantage from Administration, and the only person missing out would be the reckless former owner?

 

No. Advantage gained or not, we entered administration, automatic 12 points deducted. 

[RamsfanJim]

Overall debt has not been stated, but will be published within the next 2 weeks with Companies House (they had 8 weeks from data of Admin to produce Creditors Report).

Football debts have to be paid in full and HMRC are preferential creditor for most of their debt.

Intention is to pay 25p in the £1 to remaining creditors, they are negotiating with HMRC on how much they would be prepared to accept (when alternative is nothing if club is liquidated).

Overall figures have not been agreed, so not stated - hence why there are no bids on the table yet (as they don't know how much they would be spending, and what they would get)..

[BathRam72]

On 06/11/2021 at 11:54, Macintosh said:

I've seen £60m and £50m banded about regarding how much debt we are in, but, having several times had companies go bust on me and start up again, how little of the debt actually does get paid, and twice I worked at a company that was resurrected by a Phoenix agreement, do those that are in the know, supporters' groups that have been to meetings, have an actual ballpark figure?

The Dell loan (now £18m?) I presume is Mel's, not Derby's, which was to pay off the previous loan for buying Pride Park the second time around. The HMRC debt of £28m?, they always do a deal, a percentage, and I'd be surprised if they ended up with much more than half. The Bielik debt is in stages, future payments, and similar with Jozwiak, that possibly only adds up to £2-3m combined presently due. Money that has to be paid to the EFL for fines will be deferred against money due from TV rights, Keogh, I might be wrong, but I think there is an appeal due with that in January? and then we have legal bills and administrator's costs, that will be approaching £5m I'd have thought. The government will pay for redundancies, and the smaller debtors, non-football related will, as usual, whistle for what they were owed. Wayne is probably due some and bonuses that never got paid to players. Just the banks left?

Could it be as little as £20m a potential new owner has to find? The supporters' groups were given 30 days to make an offer, they must have figures and give us a hint.

Common denominator? Please don't ask me for a job. ?

[Macintosh]

20 hours ago, RamsfanJim said:

Overall debt has not been stated, but will be published within the next 2 weeks with Companies House (they had 8 weeks from data of Admin to produce Creditors Report).

Football debts have to be paid in full and HMRC are preferential creditor for most of their debt.

Intention is to pay 25p in the £1 to remaining creditors, they are negotiating with HMRC on how much they would be prepared to accept (when alternative is nothing if club is liquidated).

Overall figures have not been agreed, so not stated - hence why there are no bids on the table yet (as they don't know how much they would be spending, and what they would get)..

Do you know who has to pay the MSD Holding bill, is that Mel and Pride Park Stadium, or part of the overall debt?

[RamsfanJim]

33 minutes ago, Macintosh said:

Do you know who has to pay the MSD Holding bill, is that Mel and Pride Park Stadium, or part of the overall debt?

My understanding is that MSD has a charge against both the Stadium & the club (inc. training ground) potentially for different amounts. The Administrators say they have had discussions with them and they are 'onside' in the negotiations - so the repayment will be included in the overall deal (to cover debts and purchase the ground).

[Tyler Durden]

On 06/11/2021 at 11:54, Macintosh said:

I've seen £60m and £50m banded about regarding how much debt we are in, but, having several times had companies go bust on me and start up again, how little of the debt actually does get paid, and twice I worked at a company that was resurrected by a Phoenix agreement, do those that are in the know, supporters' groups that have been to meetings, have an actual ballpark figure?

The Dell loan (now £18m?) I presume is Mel's, not Derby's, which was to pay off the previous loan for buying Pride Park the second time around. The HMRC debt of £28m?, they always do a deal, a percentage, and I'd be surprised if they ended up with much more than half. The Bielik debt is in stages, future payments, and similar with Jozwiak, that possibly only adds up to £2-3m combined presently due. Money that has to be paid to the EFL for fines will be deferred against money due from TV rights, Keogh, I might be wrong, but I think there is an appeal due with that in January? and then we have legal bills and administrator's costs, that will be approaching £5m I'd have thought. The government will pay for redundancies, and the smaller debtors, non-football related will, as usual, whistle for what they were owed. Wayne is probably due some and bonuses that never got paid to players. Just the banks left?

Could it be as little as £20m a potential new owner has to find? The supporters' groups were given 30 days to make an offer, they must have figures and give us a hint.

Is your first name Jonah by any chance 

[Ruud Aralliss]

On 08/11/2021 at 20:37, europia said:

Truth is, we aren't. Ditto the majority of pro football clubs. 

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Ruud Aralliss