Trusting Sibley and setting up to attack or defend

[brady1993]

7 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

That is true. On the flip side, his first touch was poor that first half on Saturday & his passing in general is slightly laboured or wayward. I don't agree at all that he's better technically than Bryson was.

He's popular because he's all energy, an honest lad & he got his head down and sought to improve himself when Cocu made it clear he wasn't part of his plans. I like him but like another crowd favourite (Bradley Johnson), he's a limited footballer & if we're looking to control games of football, particularly with defenders who aren't noted for their ability to play, then we need holding midfielder(s) with stronger/more consistent technique.

Agree completely,  like you I think there is a limit to how far you can go trying to control games with Shinnie in the heart of midfield and that we probably need to move past him (especially if we rigidly stick to a 4231).

What I will say though is I actually think some of the issues with him would likely be alleviated if we switched to a 433 and unlike what a lot of people suggest, push him into one of the more advanced positions with a ball player behind him as the deepest player. If he was playing that role he wouldn't have to look to get on the ball as much as when he playing in a double pivot, he'd have to worry less about his positioning (which is only fine both attacking and defending) and he can focus on creating space on the ball with his running and aggressively pressing when we lose possession. We've seen him do this as well for example in the games against Swansea and Birmingham around xmas last year and honestly I thought they were probably the best performances we'd seen from him.

[LeedsCityRam]

2 hours ago, brady1993 said:

Agree completely,  like you I think there is a limit to how far you can go trying to control games with Shinnie in the heart of midfield and that we probably need to move past him (especially if we rigidly stick to a 4231).

What I will say though is I actually think some of the issues with him would likely be alleviated if we switched to a 433 and unlike what a lot of people suggest, push him into one of the more advanced positions with a ball player behind him as the deepest player. If he was playing that role he wouldn't have to look to get on the ball as much as when he playing in a double pivot, he'd have to worry less about his positioning (which is only fine both attacking and defending) and he can focus on creating space on the ball with his running and aggressively pressing when we lose possession. We've seen him do this as well for example in the games against Swansea and Birmingham around xmas last year and honestly I thought they were probably the best performances we'd seen from him.

Yes agree, his displays v Swansea (H) & Brum (A) were definitely his best in a Derby shirt. Also good v Bournemouth & Brentford (second half) in a similar role. He does carry a threat going forward & moving his pressing further up the field in theory should secure better quality possession with opposition in flux.

Guess it would work better against teams that come onto us though. My concern with him (as with Bradley Johnson) is when we have a lot of the ball as technique, creativity & speed of execution are tested more. As a team, I'd like us to dominate possession more so he'd probably end up being a situational player (sub) rather than a starter.

[brady1993]

25 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Yes agree, his displays v Swansea (H) & Brum (A) were definitely his best in a Derby shirt. Also good v Bournemouth & Brentford (second half) in a similar role. He does carry a threat going forward & moving his pressing further up the field in theory should secure better quality possession with opposition in flux.

Guess it would work better against teams that come onto us though. My concern with him (as with Bradley Johnson) is when we have a lot of the ball as technique, creativity & speed of execution are tested more. As a team, I'd like us to dominate possession more so he'd probably end up being a situational player (sub) rather than a starter.

Oh I completely agree although I don't he's think he's as bad as Johnson in that regard. I guess my point is by moving in that regard would allow us to better compensate for the downsides of his game. Ultimately though if everybody was fit, I personally wouldn't start him outside of particular games for the reasons you've outlined.

[brady1993]

8 hours ago, Chris_Martin said:

so what's the problem then ?

I'll try and outline what I think @IlsonDerby is getting at with the comment on Shinnie's defensive abilities because this is something I've been thinking about for a while, especially when people suggest him as a holding midfielder.

Broadly speaking you can loosely split "defensive" midfielders into two camps; those that are energetic, aggresively press and are looking to frequently tackle (think Kante) and those that marshall space, rely on positioning and then step in when there is a good opportunity or they have to (think Alonso). One role is about pressuring the opponent and typically intiates the press and the other role is about screening the defence and typically backs up the press. I'll nominally call the first role the ball-winning midfielder and the second the holding midfielder.

Of course there is obviously an overlap between the two roles and the higher the level the more you find players who essentially have all the qualities to do either but the point I'm making is they are different and require different skillsets and mentality (almost the complete opposite here). Typically* you want the deepest midfielder in a 433 to be a holding midfielder because by doing that the rest of the team in front of them can both attack and press more freely because they have the reassurance that if they get out of position the holding midfielder is behind them shielding the defense. However if that holding midfielder can sucked into the play and out of position i.e. by going and looking to aggressively winning the ball back there is a cavernous gap of space in the centre of the park just in front of the defense which often leads to very dangerous situations. We've seen both of these cases before at Derby; Eustace marshalled the space and was a shield but wouldn't really go press where as someone like Mascerall, despite reasonable defensive stats, was derided defensively because he would go after the ball too liberally.

Setting aside his ability on the ball for a second, Shinnie is a ball winner who relys on his energy, his aggresion and going out to make tackles. Those are his strengths whereas his positional ability and his reading of the game is only (at best) ok. There has been a fair few cases where he has gotten himself out of position due to how he plays but thats ok because there is another holding midfielder which provides enough time for him to recover and get back. This wouldn't be the case as a holding midfielder and he'd need to remain far more positionally disciplined. One of the major downsides to this though is you actually negate a lot of the stronger elements his ability to press and his energy. Then if you bring his ability in possession, he just lacks the ability both techincally and positionally to adequately link the defence to midfield which is typically key for the role (despite Eustace often being cited as only being ok on the ball he actually did this side of the game to a decent, albeit simple standard).

Somewhat controversially the player who is most the suited to the role in the squad (outside of the obvious in Bielik) is Bird who tends to read the game well and has good positioning. I quietly suspect he would likely thrive more in that role than he does in a 2 

TLDR; Just because a player is a good tackler doesn't make them a holding midfielder. Placing Shinnie would expose a lot of his weaknesses and down play his strengths. 

[europia]

On 08/08/2021 at 18:43, Carl Sagan said:

Watching the extended highlights, Sibley had three decent efforts, two narrowly missing and one on his weaker foot arrowing into the top corner, but well saved. Our only other attempts worth showing were the scrambled own goal at the back post and Kazim-Richards beaten to a header.

As a manager, Rooney needs to see it is his number one priority to find a way to fit our most dangerous player in the team. That he cannot see this tells me he's not capable of dong the job.

Fair point, Rooney doesn't seem capable. However we are stuck with him for financial reasons. Just another poor recruitment decision. 

[brady1993]

Back on topic.... the one thing I find baffling about the arguments on Sibley from a defensive standpoint is isn't the whole point of playing a 4231 as a system is that you play two defensive midfielders to give the attacking 3 midfielders substantially more creative freedom and less defensive responsibility ?

[Chris_Martin]

52 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

I'll try and outline what I think @IlsonDerby is getting at with the comment on Shinnie's defensive abilities because this is something I've been thinking about for a while, especially when people suggest him as a holding midfielder.

Broadly speaking you can loosely split "defensive" midfielders into two camps; those that are energetic, aggresively press and are looking to frequently tackle (think Kante) and those that marshall space, rely on positioning and then step in when there is a good opportunity or they have to (think Alonso). One role is about pressuring the opponent and typically intiates the press and the other role is about screening the defence and typically backs up the press. I'll nominally call the first role the ball-winning midfielder and the second the holding midfielder.

Of course there is obviously an overlap between the two roles and the higher the level the more you find players who essentially have all the qualities to do either but the point I'm making is they are different and require different skillsets and mentality (almost the complete opposite here). Typically* you want the deepest midfielder in a 433 to be a holding midfielder because by doing that the rest of the team in front of them can both attack and press more freely because they have the reassurance that if they get out of position the holding midfielder is behind them shielding the defense. However if that holding midfielder can sucked into the play and out of position i.e. by going and looking to aggressively winning the ball back there is a cavernous gap of space in the centre of the park just in front of the defense which often leads to very dangerous situations. We've seen both of these cases before at Derby; Eustace marshalled the space and was a shield but wouldn't really go press where as someone like Mascerall, despite reasonable defensive stats, was derided defensively because he would go after the ball too liberally.

Setting aside his ability on the ball for a second, Shinnie is a ball winner who relys on his energy, his aggresion and going out to make tackles. Those are his strengths whereas his positional ability and his reading of the game is only (at best) ok. There has been a fair few cases where he has gotten himself out of position due to how he plays but thats ok because there is another holding midfielder which provides enough time for him to recover and get back. This wouldn't be the case as a holding midfielder and he'd need to remain far more positionally disciplined. One of the major downsides to this though is you actually negate a lot of the stronger elements his ability to press and his energy. Then if you bring his ability in possession, he just lacks the ability both techincally and positionally to adequately link the defence to midfield which is typically key for the role (despite Eustace often being cited as only being ok on the ball he actually did this side of the game to a decent, albeit simple standard).

Somewhat controversially the player who is most the suited to the role in the squad (outside of the obvious in Bielik) is Bird who tends to read the game well and has good positioning. I quietly suspect he would likely thrive more in that role than he does in a 2 

TLDR; Just because a player is a good tackler doesn't make them a holding midfielder. Placing Shinnie would expose a lot of his weaknesses and down play his strengths. 

yeah you could be right there, but what if Shinnie is going out to win tackles because he knows he has another holding mid behind him though? If he was on his own it might force him to be a bit more positionally aware. 

[Rammy03]

31 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

Back on topic.... the one thing I find baffling about the arguments on Sibley from a defensive standpoint is isn't the whole point of playing a 4231 as a system is that you play two defensive midfielders to give the attacking 3 midfielders substantially more creative freedom and less defensive responsibility ?

Yeah it's a load of bullshite isn't it. Just let the attackers attack. Defenders defend.

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

He should start but my conern is with signing of Morrisons it is even less likely

[brady1993]

11 hours ago, Chris_Martin said:

yeah you could be right there, but what if Shinnie is going out to win tackles because he knows he has another holding mid behind him though? If he was on his own it might force him to be a bit more positionally aware. 

It's possible but when you watch him he seems to be a player that reacts rather than anticipates which is fine because in a 2 he has the legs for and is marshalling less space. As a single defensive midfielder ? I'm not sure thats the case anymore. It also if he does turn out that he can be very discplined positionally it would still pretty much negate the primary strength to his game. Personally think he'd be more suited to playing as a more advanced player in the 3 because then he could still contribute his defensive qualities but in a way that suits him better as he can go aggresively press and harry.

[Ramarena]

14 hours ago, brady1993 said:

Back on topic.... the one thing I find baffling about the arguments on Sibley from a defensive standpoint is isn't the whole point of playing a 4231 as a system is that you play two defensive midfielders to give the attacking 3 midfielders substantially more creative freedom and less defensive responsibility ?

Agreed, it doesn’t make any sense for the reasons you mention. 

I can bet you Morrison will not be given the same restrictions/expectations from the manager despite Morrison’s defensive game being no better than Sibleys!

[RoyMac5]

Interesting point on the bookings from yesterdays game (I presume the info is from the ref?). Not sure Beevers really fouled himself! But if Sibley can get the balance of his game slightly better then the bookings against him, and fouls too, will really start to count.

DerbyshireLive :

BOOKINGS:

Peterborough United: Beevers (25) foul on Beevers; Thompson (63) foul on Sibley; Butler (83) foul on Sibley;

Derby County: Sibley (90) dissent; Forsyth (90+5) foul on Dembele;

I think it won't be long before he starts, but how long until he makes 90 minutes is probably some time off.