The coronabrexit thread. I mean, coronavirus thread

[maxjam]

8 hours ago, Eddie said:

Yes, it warrants further research, and I assume that will follow.

That's how science should work - yet you are advocating a change in approach because "No smoke without fire".

Why am I advocating a change in approach if thats how science should work?

The study which has literally just been published, suggests that younger people, especially 12-15yo males, are at higher risk from the vaccine - I am happy to wait for the paper to be peer reviewed or further studies undertaken and not rush into vaccinating children as many countries have done in the meantime. 

Now surely thats how science should work?

Besides at the time I wasn't arguing about what the data shows us or what individual studies claim, I was wondering whether the BBC or the teaching profession for example will give children the full picture in an unbiased manner without pressure.

The video the BBC has produced urges children to get vaccinated and puts them at loggerheads with their 'anti-vax' parents - yet there is no mention of how little covid affects children, potential complications with the vaccine (both short/long term).  Just a disgusting attempt at driving a wedge in the family and unequivocally pushing the vaccine without consequence. 

[Eddie]

9 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Why am I advocating a change in approach if thats how science should work?

The study which has literally just been published, suggests that younger people, especially 12-15yo males, are at higher risk from the vaccine - I am happy to wait for the paper to be peer reviewed or further studies undertaken and not rush into vaccinating children as many countries have done in the meantime. 

Now surely thats how science should work?

Besides at the time I wasn't arguing about what the data shows us or what individual studies claim, I was wondering whether the BBC or the teaching profession for example will give children the full picture in an unbiased manner without pressure.

The video the BBC has produced urges children to get vaccinated and puts them at loggerheads with their 'anti-vax' parents - yet there is no mention of how little covid affects children, potential complications with the vaccine (both short/long term).  Just a disgusting attempt at driving a wedge in the family and unequivocally pushing the vaccine without consequence. 

It actually suggests that boys aged 12-15 are potentially at higher risk from the vaccine.

Your argument regarding 'potential complications' is an interesting one - because basically it could be applied to everybody under all circumstances. Should anyone ever be vaccinated? There may be complications 5 years down the line - but if you wait until you are sure, then nobody will have been vaccinated anyway.

So far as the 'full picture' is concerned, what is that? You are not even arguing for or representing the full picture - you are looking at a small age range of a single sex in a limited context. A global vaccination program has to take into account the societal implications of not vaccinating a subset of the population (children).

[Bob The Badger]

2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

I dont see the problem with discussing politicians response to Covid, as the 2 are obviously very heavily linked.

On to your point, there are circa 258 million adults in the US, so that is 45% of adults registered to vote. 

Is the demographic of registered voters published anywhere?

Sorry, I meant there are 115 million registered as being either Democrat or Republican - 60m Dem and 55m Rep.

There will be millions registered as independents or for the Greens, Libertarians etc.,  and millions who don't register and never vote.

About 72% of people who voted were affiliated with one party of the other.

So that gives them a pretty good idea of who the people dying from Covid voted for.

And yes it is published. I can't be bothered to go searching now but I'm sure you can find. it.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Bob The Badger

[Archied]

2 hours ago, Bob The Badger said:

The post explained that there are 115 million registered voters in the US so that is how they know pretty accurately that the people who are dying from COVID are overwhelmingly Republican voters.

We all want an end to this pandemic and the quickest way to that In my opinion and that of most experts) is via the vaccine. Sadly, that has become highly politicised so it's difficult to separate the two and have a meaningful debate. 

Of course we all want an end to this though to be fair some will want to desperately cling to the advantages measures have brought them short term , some have done very well financially and some feel they’re lifestyle enhanced in many ways ,

as I’ve stated many times I’m double jabbed and took that step in the belief it would bring this madness to an end if the vast majority chose to be double jabbed but I did it without too much hope that things would go back to normal as it’s been clear from the start that this whole thing would be political and monetised in the long run,

it is clear being jabbed does not stop you catching and spreading covid and I believe ( rightly or wrongly) that figures as we go forward will not be great on how much being jabbed reduces spread though at this point it seems death and serious illness in those who are for unexplained reasons hit by covid in a way the vast majority of people are not ,

personally I believe that resources and focus should be aimed at discovering why some ( a very small percentage) are struck down in the way they are rather than , vaccine mandates via passports , vaccinating those who don’t want it , vaccinating those who don’t need it  ( children) , endless tests on those without symptoms,booster programs, there is a vast money spinning industry that has grown around covid , not least the fear advertising,

It’s time to get on with normal life as it was before covid ,it is way down the list of causes of deaths in people

[maxjam]

Just now, Eddie said:

It actually suggests that boys aged 12-15 are potentially at higher risk from the vaccine.

That is what I said.

 

1 minute ago, Eddie said:

Your argument regarding 'potential complications' is an interesting one - because basically it could be applied to everybody under all circumstances. Should anyone ever be vaccinated? There may be complications 5 years down the line - but if you wait until you are sure, then nobody will have been vaccinated anyway.

When we initially started the vaccine program it was for the elderly and vulnerable.  As they started vaccinating younger and younger age groups I became increasingly concerned.  Threatening the younger generation with vaccine passports to enjoy life is disgusting - they are at lower risk from covid and have more to lose should any long term complications arise. 

When you start vaccinating children, you have to be 100% no long term issues will arise - especially given their 99.995% survival rate. It is a new technology and a number of reputable scientists have voiced concerns.  Given the extremely low risk to children, my argument is that we wait and see to be sure rather than potentially regret vaccinating a generation.

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-only-0-005-of-covid-infections-among-children-have-led-to-deaths-so-vaccine-would-have-to-be-very-low-risk-12351975

12-15yos could easily wait 5+ years for real world data to filter through whilst remaining in an age category that is barely touched by covid.  The rush to vaccinate everyone asap is ignoring these studies coming through that suggest there are some short term risks and completely ignores any long term complications. 

 

12 minutes ago, Eddie said:

So far as the 'full picture' is concerned, what is that? You are not even arguing for or representing the full picture - you are looking at a small age range of a single sex in a limited context. A global vaccination program has to take into account the societal implications of not vaccinating a subset of the population (children).

The full picture is understanding that the younger generations are at minimal risk from covid.  The vaccine may (or may not) ultimately end up costing them more than any benefits they receive.  Before we vaccinate a generation however we have to be 100% certain that there will be no long term effects - and that can only be gained in the real world over time.

Your final sentence works on the principle that you expect children to protect adults, specifically the elderly.  I personally am only happy for that to happen with my children once the vaccine has been overwhelmingly safe in both the short and long term. 

Finally...  I don't want to argue this point tbh, we've been over it multiple times in this thread.  My recent interactions with this thread have mostly been to do with vaccine passports and the rush to vaccinate children and in last nights posts the BBCs disgusting propaganda video aimed at kids.

[Archied]

3 minutes ago, maxjam said:

That is what I said.

 

When we initially started the vaccine program it was for the elderly and vulnerable.  As they started vaccinating younger and younger age groups I became increasingly concerned.  Threatening the younger generation with vaccine passports to enjoy life is disgusting - they are at lower risk from covid and have more to lose should any long term complications arise. 

When you start vaccinating children, you have to be 100% no long term issues will arise - especially given their 99.995% survival rate. It is a new technology and a number of reputable scientists have voiced concerns.  Given the extremely low risk to children, my argument is that we wait and see to be sure rather than potentially regret vaccinating a generation.

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-only-0-005-of-covid-infections-among-children-have-led-to-deaths-so-vaccine-would-have-to-be-very-low-risk-12351975

12-15yos could easily wait 5+ years for real world data to filter through whilst remaining in an age category that is barely touched by covid.  The rush to vaccinate everyone asap is ignoring these studies coming through that suggest there are some short term risks and completely ignores any long term complications. 

 

The full picture is understanding that the younger generations are at minimal risk from covid.  The vaccine may (or may not) ultimately end up costing them more than any benefits they receive.  Before we vaccinate a generation however we have to be 100% certain that there will be no long term effects - and that can only be gained in the real world over time.

Your final sentence works on the principle that you expect children to protect adults, specifically the elderly.  I personally am only happy for that to happen with my children once the vaccine has been overwhelmingly safe in both the short and long term. 

Finally...  I don't want to argue this point tbh, we've been over it multiple times in this thread.  My recent interactions with this thread have mostly been to do with vaccine passports and the rush to vaccinate children and in last nights posts the BBCs disgusting propaganda video aimed at kids.

The talk from ministers is now vaccinating children will be a benefit for they’re mental health ,education and social lives ,,, 

you really couldn’t write this stuff , ffs stop this madness 

[Day]

11 minutes ago, Archied said:

It’s time to get on with normal life

I find this interesting as we’re now 231 (maybe less for non moderators) pages now on the second topic on this virus. 

Is this normal, where is the Flu or Cancer topics and do you all discuss COVID outside of the forum?

Curious as the circles I mix in rarely gets brought up now as we all try to get back to normality the best we can.

I struggle to understand what’s really left to talk about now, the vaccine is out there, some have chosen to have it, others not, those that haven’t will be aware of the COVID passport restrictions that are expected to be introduced. 

No further lockdowns on the horizon, travel will be managed by the traffic light system for a while as other countries roll out their vaccine programmes.

As with any topic on the forum, if you’re not interested, don’t read it and I take that on board, but as I say I’m curious at this point how you are all continuing day after day with what is just one virus/disease that is affecting the human race.

[maxjam]

15 minutes ago, David said:

I struggle to understand what’s really left to talk about now, the vaccine is out there, some have chosen to have it, others not, those that haven’t will be aware of the COVID passport restrictions that are expected to be introduced. 

No further lockdowns on the horizon, travel will be managed by the traffic light system for a while as other countries roll out their vaccine programmes.

Well... you have highlighted several things there that need discussion!

Do you have the right not to have the vaccine?  And if so, should you be punished for not having it?  Why do we need vaccine passports if you yourself are vaccinated and the vaccinated can spread it at similar rates to the unvaccinated?  As for no further lockdowns, the Govt have refused to rule them out, have hinted at a October 'firebreak' and are expected to extend their emergency powers for another 6 months.

And thats not to mention any of the other stuff we all talk about!

Feel free to join us in the basement occasionally ? 

[Day]

14 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Well... you have highlighted several things there that need discussion!

Do you have the right not to have the vaccine?  And if so, should you be punished for not having it?  Why do we need vaccine passports if you yourself are vaccinated and the vaccinated can spread it at similar rates to the unvaccinated?  As for no further lockdowns, the Govt have refused to rule them out, have hinted at a October 'firebreak' and are expected to extend their emergency powers for another 6 months.

And thats not to mention any of the other stuff we all talk about!

Feel free to join us in the basement occasionally ? 

Absolutely discussion points, however the vaccine and passports are surely old topics now, we’ve known about them for several months now, I’ve seen the discussions take place, could probably say where you all stand on it and that’s unlikely to change

[Stive Pesley]

34 minutes ago, David said:

I find this interesting as we’re now 231 (maybe less for non moderators) pages

224 pages for us mortals - christ that's 7 pages of deleted comments?!  ?

I think the topic is definitely slowing down - and rightfully so, but you seem surprised that there is a long topic on the most significant, unique global event that has taken place in our lifetimes? I've pointed out before that for a lot of people, this thread has been crucial as a way of processing anxieties, fears and hopes, and just helping to process each individuals lived experience of the pandemic

It may not be signposted as such, but it would be wrong to dismiss this thread as just nobheads arguing with each other (a charge that was almost certainly valid for the old politics thread!) For me this topic is as valid as the Mental Health one 

[Day]

11 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

224 pages for us mortals - christ that's 7 pages of deleted comments?!  ?

I think the topic is definitely slowing down - and rightfully so, but you seem surprised that there is a long topic on the most significant, unique global event that has taken place in our lifetimes? I've pointed out before that for a lot of people, this thread has been crucial as a way of processing anxieties, fears and hopes, and just helping to process each individuals lived experience of the pandemic

It may not be signposted as such, but it would be wrong to dismiss this thread as just nobheads arguing with each other (a charge that was almost certainly valid for the old politics thread!) For me this topic is as valid as the Mental Health one 

I never called you all nobheads….not publicly anyway ?

The 7 pages were probably arguing as things went political, this is still the most reported topic on the forum. 

Having read it in batches, must say I’m surprised you see it as a way of processing anxieties and fears, see far more arguments over how stats are seen and source offs.

There was a dedicated topic created by @sage I believe that was for the purpose of members discussing how they are coping with the pandemic, mental health and finding new hobbies which soon dropped down the pages.

Guess how many reports the Mental Health topics have had…

[May Contain Nuts]

The myocarditis link is an interesting one.

I have been double Pfizered and in recent weeks (basically since attending football matched became a thing again) I have found that I am significantly less able to walk anywhere, get worn out very quickly, and that I'm not breathing properly when I do. Subsequently I am getting some chest & left arm pain (Yes, I know, bad) and so in a catch 22 type situation I'm panicking about walking and as a result not breathing naturally...

If I was of a certain mind I'd convince myself that it must be a side effect of the vaccine.

...but the reality is that I had this issue to a much lesser degree long before Covid-19 was even a thing, it'd happen once every 5 months or so when walking between pubs on an evening out. Since the pandemic and all of its has happened I've spent more time than ever just sat on my arse, drank copious amounts of beer, ate more takeaways than ever before and generally got myself into a very unhealthy state gaining maybe 10lbs so of course I'm going to struggle for fitness!

I'd wager that's the more likely cause of my issues than a 0.00041418918918918925% chance of it being a side effect of a vaccine, but hey, who knows. Will see how I feel in a few months.

[Stive Pesley]

23 minutes ago, David said:

Having read it in batches, must say I’m surprised you see it as a way of processing anxieties and fears, see far more arguments over how stats are seen and source offs.

There was a dedicated topic created by @sage I believe that was for the purpose of members discussing how they are coping with the pandemic, mental health and finding new hobbies which soon dropped down the pages.

Yeah I'd forgotten about that thread - but I suppose I was talking at a more sub-conscious level, rather than blatant outright discussion of the mental health effects of the pandemic. Maybe I'm more attuned to it as I'm married to a mental health professional. There is no escape!

 

25 minutes ago, David said:

Guess how many reports the Mental Health topics have had…

Is that a challenge? ?

Actually I did notice that the mental health thread has nearly as many views as the covid topic, yet only a quarter of the posts. That tells it's own story I suppose. Just because someone doesn't say they are struggling, doesn't mean they aren't struggling - but these things manifest themselves in different ways. 

 

[Gaspode]

51 minutes ago, David said:

Absolutely discussion points, however the vaccine and passports are surely old topics now, we’ve known about them for several months now, I’ve seen the discussions take place, could probably say where you all stand on it and that’s unlikely to change

Are you new here? ? We have a number of posters who will continue their campaigns to be proven right for as long as they are able to type.....I would however agree with @Stive Pesley (which is unusual in itself) that there is (and should still be) life in the thread...

I would, for example, expect there to be a discussion regarding vacine doses and whether the UK should be sending more to poorer nations rather than saving for booster jabs in this country - unfortunately some folk prefer to show off their knowledge of US politics or to highjack the thread with political point scoring rather than discuss the big issues....if they could control themselves, we might have a shorter but more engaing discussion with a larger number of posters (and therefore generate far more puns - which is what we're all really here for in the end.....)

Edited September 10, 2021 by Gaspode

[Archied]

41 minutes ago, David said:

I find this interesting as we’re now 231 (maybe less for non moderators) pages now on the second topic on this virus. 

Is this normal, where is the Flu or Cancer topics and do you all discuss COVID outside of the forum?

Curious as the circles I mix in rarely gets brought up now as we all try to get back to normality the best we can.

I struggle to understand what’s really left to talk about now, the vaccine is out there, some have chosen to have it, others not, those that haven’t will be aware of the COVID passport restrictions that are expected to be introduced. 

No further lockdowns on the horizon, travel will be managed by the traffic light system for a while as other countries roll out their vaccine programmes.

As with any topic on the forum, if you’re not interested, don’t read it and I take that on board, but as I say I’m curious at this point how you are all continuing day after day with what is just one virus/disease that is affecting the human race.

The best we can bit is the give away

[Day]

6 minutes ago, Gaspode said:

Are you new here? ? We have a number of posters who will continue their campaigns to be proven right for as long as they are able to type.....I would however agree with @Stive Pesley (which is unusual in itself) that there is (and should still be) life in the thread...

I would, for example, expect there to be a discussion regarding vacine doses and whether the UK should be sending more to poorer nations rather than saving for booster jabs in this country - unfortunately some folk prefer to show off their knowledge of US politics or to highjack the thread with political point scoring rather than discuss the big issues....if they could control themselves, we might have a shorter but more engaing discussion with a larger number of posters (and therefore generate far more puns - which is what we're all really here for in the end.....)

You're right. Hard though argue that isn't a talking point.

Personally I just find it all a little frustrating, the main posters in this topic are those from the politics thread, whilst there is nothing wrong with that.

The frustration comes as there could be a politics topic, but those that reside in the topic just don't/won't get on, we've pulled topics, brought them back, posted plea after plea but after a few quiet days it starts up again.

It ruins it for everyone at the end of the day. Found myself at times wanting to discuss something political but can't. 

Came in to read this topic today and all I can see is as you say US politics and National Insurance contributions, let's be honest it's just another poorly disguised politics thread at this point.

I suggested a while back we try and reintroduce another stricter politics thread but the moderators flat out refused the idea, too much hassle and I have to respect that.

[Stive Pesley]

Some interesting (and hopefully good) news

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210722/New-blood-test-could-help-predict-the-severity-of-COVID-19-symptoms.aspx

 

[maxjam]

1 hour ago, David said:

Having read it in batches, must say I’m surprised you see it as a way of processing anxieties and fears, see far more arguments over how stats are seen and source offs.

The problem with this thread and pandemic in general is that it affects people differently, you can't just post your opinion else you get torn to shreds so you have to post stats, studies, articles etc to back your opinions up - we can then argue over the merits of those than each other.

 

1 hour ago, David said:

Absolutely discussion points, however the vaccine and passports are surely old topics now, we’ve known about them for several months now, I’ve seen the discussions take place, could probably say where you all stand on it and that’s unlikely to change

Whilst we've known about a lot of these things for months we can still argue against them.  We are probably all entrenched in our views but that doesn't stop us speaking up when new data arises that confirms our point of view - new evidence against child vaccination or news that the vaccinated can transmit covid at similar rates to the unvaccinated nullifying the passport argument for example. 

The Govt has flip-flopped enough during the past couple of years that nothing is ever really finished and if you believe strongly enough about something when new info or talking points arise this thread will continue to rumble on.

I think we're a lot better behaved in general than we were in the old politics thread and respect each others opinions, you'll even find people such as @Stive Pesley and I agreeing at times ? but sometimes you have to dig your heals in and stand up for what you personally believe is right which occasionally leads to rubbing people up the wrong way. 

Personally, I'm not going to apologise for being against passports and vaccinating under 18s.  I'll agree to differ with a lot of things but these are my battle lines!  I'll be respectful and polite whilst we're arguing but you're gonna have to have a very, very good argument to get me to back down.

[Grumpy Git]

1 hour ago, David said:

The 7 pages were probably arguing as things went political, this is still the most reported topic on the forum.

Well I guess people will report posts that show the way they voted in a certain referendum proves they were totally duped.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Grumpy Git

[Bob The Badger]

41 minutes ago, David said:

You're right. Hard though argue that isn't a talking point.

Personally I just find it all a little frustrating, the main posters in this topic are those from the politics thread, whilst there is nothing wrong with that.

The frustration comes as there could be a politics topic, but those that reside in the topic just don't/won't get on, we've pulled topics, brought them back, posted plea after plea but after a few quiet days it starts up again.

It ruins it for everyone at the end of the day. Found myself at times wanting to discuss something political but can't. 

Came in to read this topic today and all I can see is as you say US politics and National Insurance contributions, let's be honest it's just another poorly disguised politics thread at this point.

I suggested a while back we try and reintroduce another stricter politics thread but the moderators flat out refused the idea, too much hassle and I have to respect that.

Clearly it was me who brought up the US politics when two posters questioned the validity of a tweet from Neil deGrasse Tyson because they didn't believe the information is readily available about who voted for who in the US general election because it's not available over here.

Now they know it is and I think/hope @G STAR RAM appreciated knowing about the US system and how they are dealing with Covid stats.

I'm not sure why that and posts about NI contributions is ALL you can see. I can see lots more. Are people blocking you? ?

Similarly, I'm not sure why you're bothered about a bunch of adults discussing Covid or even politics. I genuinely cannot remember reporting a post in this thread (maybe I have and I just forgot) and for the most part I'm not sure why others do.

I never get offended by what people say to me because I know it's a choice. sure, things can get a bit heated and people get personal (I got a warning a couple of years ago for calling a poster an idiot), but it's just a message board.

I have dived in and out of this thread when I have had or not had time and I've definitely learned stuff.

Anyway, that's just a badgers opinion and I hope you got the donation I sent you on Monday. I never had a receipt or even a message saying thanks, so I wasn't sure.