GboroRam Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 2 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said: His lawyers would which if it came to trial is what matters. His lawyers would be instructed not to. He wouldn't allow that. It would nullify everything he ever did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds Ram Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 2 minutes ago, GboroRam said: His lawyers would be instructed not to. He wouldn't allow that. It would nullify everything he ever did. I'm not a lawyer so I don't know in the US system if a legal team decides to move forward with an insanity defence what happens regarding that. Ditto, with any appeal that could include grounds for a mistrial (a revised evaluation of mental competency is one of the few ways to win an appeal I believe) I think the fact it's a possibility even theoretically needs to be considered given how close we are to the end of the trump presidency. It'd be theoretically possible to just limit what he can do institutionally without removing him by a mass wave of resignations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaspode Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 19 minutes ago, GboroRam said: Trump would never use insanity as a defence. I think it would more likely be the prosecution using insanity as their case - though that could have been applied through most of the past 4 years.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Git Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 I got talking to a US guy in a bar in Scandinavia about 12 months ago. He came across as a perfectly reasonable bloke until the conversation somehow got around to "Obamacare". Wow, what a transformation, he went on a big rant about it being some sort of Marxist conspiracy. I found it quite scary how he got spooked by what I consider to be a perfectly reasonable social issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaaLocks Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 1 hour ago, ariotofmyown said: Some great posts on this thread today. The dawn of a more sensible and intelligent politics conversation on both here and in the world at large? Agree it is needed but no chance it will happen - power is never given up, it has to be taken and then, even when the new people have it they become corrupted by power. Look at every empire, republic, state or body of power in history and the number that acted for the many can be named on one hand and even some of those (King Ashoka in India being an example) were somewhat mythologised. The other problem is that we as humans as so susceptible to being convinced of stories that suit our desire to be part of the winning side - empire, mythology, religion, revolution, myths and fables. Just look at the 'I Am Greta' documentary on iPlayer and in particular the scene where she meets President Macron - he treats her with utter disdain and his opening question, with arms folded, is to try and trick her into saying how she travelled to meet him. Humans are, ultimately, apex predators, tribal and survivors species. We don't have the overall genetic material for empathy, consideration of our actions outside of our line of sight (how many meat eaters, myself included, would actually slit the throat of a cow yet happily enjoy a burger) and - most worryingly - a lack of ability to see long term consequences (climate change being probably the best case). Sorry, I know you probably wanted a couple of nob jokes instead but it's all pretty depressing when you unpack it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 29 minutes ago, GboroRam said: His lawyers would be instructed not to. He wouldn't allow that. It would nullify everything he ever did. That's exactly what an insane person would do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimmu Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 5 hours ago, Archied said: Perhaps what we hold up as democracy in the west is rotten to the core? Flawed certainly but it's democratic elections and the upholding of their results that will see the end of the Trump's presidency. No matter how much Trump wants to be a dictator, it's not going to happen in the US. He is gone on Jan 20th at the latest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 2 hours ago, ariotofmyown said: Some great posts on this thread today. The dawn of a more sensible and intelligent politics conversation on both here and in the world at large? And its no coincidence that I have yet to enter the arena... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds Ram Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 2 hours ago, Leeds Ram said: There needs to be serious consideration about what to do next regarding Trump for both the incoming administration, the current cabinet and Congress. They could invoke the 25th and remove him for the remainder of his presidency. Due to the brief amount of time he has left Trump would be unable to challenge this and that would be the end. Given the 25th is exercised due to someone being physically or mentally unable to exercise their duties this might give him some form of insanity defence if he was to be prosecuted. They could impeach and convict him and at this point there are only a handful of senate republicans who'd be willing to defend a dying administration. They could even impeach him once he leaves office ensuring he cannot run again- the pardoning of key campaign aides and up until the events of yesterday his apparent grip on the Republican Party base seemed to suggest he'd be running again in 2024. What seems to be happening is a wave of resignations disabling what is left of the administration and a last gap attempt to save their own reputations. People blaming modern media on the partisanship that has been growing neglect the political divide that has existed in the states both geographically and between (as well as inside) political parties for literally decades. Riots at party conventions, fierce debates over racial integration especially in schools, fights over the death penalty, vietnam, increasingly ugly debates over abortion including a plank in the Republican platform to ban abortion with a constitutional amendment all happened decades ago. When Goldwater won the Republican nomination in 1964 people believed the party had been taken over by extremists that would end up in nuclear annihilation in much the same manner people see the Trump movement today. So grassroots ideologues taking over political parties fostering increasingly divergent values is nothing new and there is also a history of this in the Democrats with the McGovern candidacy of 68. It's arguably not partisanship that led to these events (although authors such as Haidt would disagree with me) but the decline of trust in institutions. When Ford pardoned Nixon it arguably led to a massive decline in trust in the institutions of government for a generation, the Biden administration have got to think long and hard about that when deciding whether they want to prosecute Trump (I think they should). Writers such as Yascha Mounk and Rick Perlstein have highlighted some quite terrifying polling about both trust in institutions that has been polling downwards and an increasing attraction towards an autocratic model of government. If people still trusted in the democratic systems of government (that place Judges in the courts) then this would not have happened even if partisanship was ramped up even further. It's a complete breakdown of trust in these institutions that led to this and arguably it was pardoning the last president to commit a definite crime that began that rot. Mcgovern's 72 candidacy sorry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 1 hour ago, Highgate said: Flawed certainly but it's democratic elections and the upholding of their results that will see the end of the Trump's presidency. No matter how much Trump wants to be a dictator, it's not going to happen in the US. He is gone on Jan 20th at the latest. Brilliant post .. and in a way a tribute to both the old law givers, constitution writers AND social media .. something that didn’t happen in Germany in the 1930’s .. has happened today. The bad guy lost ! The much criticised “system” has learned, evolved and triumphed. It has some bruises, the car isn’t clean and unmarked but it will get to its destination. In that regard we have advanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 3 minutes ago, jono said: Brilliant post .. and in a way a tribute to both the old law givers, constitution writers AND social media .. something that didn’t happen in Germany in the 1930’s .. has happened today. The bad guy lost ! The much criticised “system” has learned, evolved and triumphed. It has some bruises, the car isn’t clean and unmarked but it will get to its destination. In that regard we have advanced. Much of the credit goes to state election officials, many of them Republicans, who did their job and upheld the results of a fair election. They did this under intense pressure from Trump and other Republicans in Congress (who were thinking of their own future electability). Credit too to the judges who quickly dismissed Trump's baseless claims of fraud time and time again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 33 minutes ago, Highgate said: Much of the credit goes to state election officials, many of them Republicans, who did their job and upheld the results of a fair election. They did this under intense pressure from Trump and other Republicans in Congress (who were thinking of their own future electability). Credit too to the judges who quickly dismissed Trump's baseless claims of fraud time and time again. Yes. There was a lot of courage shown by individuals with ethics that superseded partisan loyalty. It’s something I reckon we should all consider when we have our debates about right and wrong in politics .. there is a view, there is a proposed solution according to our personal beliefs .. but there is also an overriding greater truth .. just doing the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaaLocks Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 3 hours ago, Dimmu said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIllyD Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 Well it didn't take long to take an interesting thread about a president who incited thousands of people resulting in several deaths and making a complete mockery of the way the country is being run, into to a point scoring, finger pointing, irrelevant direction. Comparing the two is completely ridiculous and it's a shame that once again this has happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rynny Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 We left you to play nicely but descended into what we hoped it wouldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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