Whittaker

[whiteroseram]

41 minutes ago, irobinson said:

Times have moved on 

 

we are blooding them here not on loan. The model, finance and cv19 has placed more reliance on home grown. Which is good 

 

least our talent has been Kept together and will learn from playing week in together 

 

Well done young Whittaker on the first of many goals 

Agreed, not just about blooding them but when they don't automatically fit what you need from them (like @angieramsay's MW might not) this coaching team have shown a willingness to work with players, like they did with Shinnie, to mould them into the player they want. He wouldn't get that out on loan

[Uptherams]

38 minutes ago, Mark Goddard said:

I guess that we'll have to retain the majority of the bright youngsters, rather than loaning them out. I can't see us making many new signings, and coaching staff require a good pool of talented players for training purposes.

I'd rather a bright youngster sat on our bench than another failed high wage/transfer fee player. Also allows us to concentrate more resources on getting the right player in positions we need. Instead of a pick further down the list.

I'd be interested to see if Buchanan is moulded into a winger. Guy's got a decent cross on him. I'm not sure where Whittaker's best position is. I remember when Barca used to play without a proper forward. Can see it here too. Whittaker playing  centrally but deeper and closer to the likes of Sibley. Playing deeper for most of the game than Lawrence and Waghorn out wide. Allowing them and Sibley to get in behind. 

Martin is a traditional holdup striker/target. Where as I think Whittaker shouldn't play with his back to the goal. He'd score goals, but his main job would be to enable the likes of Sibley, Lawrence and Waghorn to score. 

 

[RadioactiveWaste]

I remember people saying Hughes should be loaned out to League 1 to toughen up as if that's some sort of magic recipe to turn promising youngsters into "grown up" senior professional footballers. 

Obviously, it is what some youth players need, but not all and not to any lower division club. I think the current set are actually handling the development and involvement pretty well, probably put a bit more on young shoulders than they'd ideally have liked due to circumstances.

But as a general case I tend to rank the calls to loan out youth players as a bit like calls for more "passhun" - we all want the team to bust a gut to win but the reality is more complicated than that.

[Van der MoodHoover]

1 hour ago, Mostyn6 said:

simply, at many points of the season, we will face a team of cloggers and in recent years, being unable to cope against those teams has cost us plenty of points!

This is undoubtedly true, but I do not subscribe to the belief that to BEAT them  you have to BE LIKE them.

I think good coaching in our set up is the answer.

Plus possibly a couple of hard nuts of our own....

[LeedsCityRam]

1 hour ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

I remember people saying Hughes should be loaned out to League 1 to toughen up as if that's some sort of magic recipe to turn promising youngsters into "grown up" senior professional footballers. 

Obviously, it is what some youth players need, but not all and not to any lower division club. I think the current set are actually handling the development and involvement pretty well, probably put a bit more on young shoulders than they'd ideally have liked due to circumstances.

But as a general case I tend to rank the calls to loan out youth players as a bit like calls for more "passhun" - we all want the team to bust a gut to win but the reality is more complicated than that.

Couldn't agree more.

Its such a lazy & uninformed opinion - 'yeh send them to League Two to toughen up' irrespective of the player & their perceived shortcomings.

League One/Two is a brutal style of football - you only need to look at the 2 playoff winners from those divisions this month. Wycombe are a grim, physical & unashamedly counter attacking team that make Millwall & Forest look like Man City. Northampton from League Two are even worse - absolute athletes but terrible style of play. We obviously mixed it with them in Jan but it was an absolute arm-wrestle.

Whittaker could do with bulking up a bit. Does he need a few months in an alien environment being smashed by hairy-arsed centre halves to 'toughen up'? No. He's a technical player - keep him in a technical environment. If first team football is an issue, loan him abroad.

[brady1993]

15 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Couldn't agree more.

Its such a lazy & uninformed opinion - 'yeh send them to League Two to toughen up' irrespective of the player & their perceived shortcomings.

League One/Two is a brutal style of football - you only need to look at the 2 playoff winners from those divisions this month. Wycombe are a grim, physical & unashamedly counter attacking team that make Millwall & Forest look like Man City. Northampton from League Two are even worse - absolute athletes but terrible style of play. We obviously mixed it with them in Jan but it was an absolute arm-wrestle.

Whittaker could do with bulking up a bit. Does he need a few months in an alien environment being smashed by hairy-arsed centre halves to 'toughen up'? No. He's a technical player - keep him in a technical environment. If first team football is an issue, loan him abroad.

Couldn't agree more but a couple points I'd like to tag on:

1) His main issue right now as you and others have mentioned is he looks like he needs to bulk up a bit and get stronger. Those are issues almost entirely solved away from the pitch, in the gym and honestly just with time. 

2) On these matters in particular I think the decision Cocu makes on him is almost likely to be for the best. His track record of bringing through players is astounding. Although if I was to guess I think it's likely he keeps him close and eases him in like he did with Knight, Bird and Sibley and I don't think it will be surprising if some amount of pre-season game time is used to help this along.

[LeedsCityRam]

13 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

Couldn't agree more but a couple points I'd like to tag on:

1) His main issue right now as you and others have mentioned is he looks like he needs to bulk up a bit and get stronger. Those are issues almost entirely solved away from the pitch, in the gym and honestly just with time. 

2) On these matters in particular I think the decision Cocu makes on him is almost likely to be for the best. His track record of bringing through players is astounding. Although if I was to guess I think it's likely he keeps him close and eases him in like he did with Knight, Bird and Sibley and I don't think it will be surprising if some amount of pre-season game time is used to help this along.

Yes, I totally see that happening - gradual integration of Morgan into the first team. I think @Ghost of Clough highlighted that with Morgan in particular, he needed a few months to hit the pitch of each youth level he was promoted to - ergo it makes sense for Cocu to have the same patience with him in the first team.

Agreed Cocu's track record with the youth is fantastic - his PSV alumni demonstrate that. I fully believe he thought Bird & Knight capable of winning games back end of last year but took on the short term hassle of poor results up to end of December to match their integration with Rooney's arrival. A lesser manager would have used them to save his skin earlier in the season.

[sage]

8 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Couldn't agree more.

Its such a lazy & uninformed opinion - 'yeh send them to League Two to toughen up' irrespective of the player & their perceived shortcomings.

League One/Two is a brutal style of football - you only need to look at the 2 playoff winners from those divisions this month. Wycombe are a grim, physical & unashamedly counter attacking team that make Millwall & Forest look like Man City. Northampton from League Two are even worse - absolute athletes but terrible style of play. We obviously mixed it with them in Jan but it was an absolute arm-wrestle.

Whittaker could do with bulking up a bit. Does he need a few months in an alien environment being smashed by hairy-arsed centre halves to 'toughen up'? No. He's a technical player - keep him in a technical environment. If first team football is an issue, loan him abroad.

I would agree. Send him to a Dutch second division team, who will have a closer style of football to our own than a League Two team.

 

[RadioactiveWaste]

22 minutes ago, sage said:

I would agree. Send him to a Dutch second division team, who will have a closer style of football to our own than a League Two team.

 

I think this could work. However, it'd have to be thought through and right the individual - the potential pitfalls of loaning out are still there with added complications of moving abroad - I do in general think more British players should experience other leagues but it's not going to be right for everyone.

And for all I said about L1/L2 loans earlier in the thread, they are still an option that is going to work for some players. I don't really follow the u23s and I don't know the personalities of the players but I'd imagine the transition from youth player to professional will be a different process for each and some will respond to different things in different ways. Some might well need "you're going to <L1 club> to play proper football and you'll sink or swim lad" but having that as a blanket and discarding those who sink might be the best at getting value out of all the prospects on the books.

I do remember the club were quite positive when we sold Luke Thomas - no he didn't make it as a DCFC 1st teamer, we didn't get a big fee, but it was seen as important step in terms the academy maturing as an academy that produces footballers you might want to buy rather than youths who didn't cut it at a big championship club but might be OK for you.

[Srg]

45 minutes ago, sage said:

I would agree. Send him to a Dutch second division team, who will have a closer style of football to our own than a League Two team.

 

I agree, apart from I think an Eredivisie team would be preferable. Can't imagine the standard in the second division would be of much use. With that said, I expect him to be in a similar role to this year, just with a couple more starts and more minutes off the bench.

[sage]

2 minutes ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

I think this could work. However, it'd have to be thought through and right the individual - the potential pitfalls of loaning out are still there with added complications of moving abroad - I do in general think more British players should experience other leagues but it's not going to be right for everyone.

And for all I said about L1/L2 loans earlier in the thread, they are still an option that is going to work for some players. I don't really follow the u23s and I don't know the personalities of the players but I'd imagine the transition from youth player to professional will be a different process for each and some will respond to different things in different ways. Some might well need "you're going to <L1 club> to play proper football and you'll sink or swim lad" but having that as a blanket and discarding those who sink might be the best at getting value out of all the prospects on the books.

I do remember the club were quite positive when we sold Luke Thomas - no he didn't make it as a DCFC 1st teamer, we didn't get a big fee, but it was seen as important step in terms the academy maturing as an academy that produces footballers you might want to buy rather than youths who didn't cut it at a big championship club but might be OK for you.

If going abroad it can help by sending 2 players to the same club. Perhaps Whittaker and Buchanan.

[sage]

Just now, Srg said:

I agree, apart from I think an Eredivisie team would be preferable. Can't imagine the standard in the second division would be of much use. With that said, I expect him to be in a similar role to this year, just with a couple more starts and more minutes off the bench.

The trouble with that is, it would have to be a bottom 6 Eredivisie team to get a regular game and then as a forward, are you going to get much possession in games.  

[RadioactiveWaste]

Just now, sage said:

If going abroad it can help by sending 2 players to the same club. Perhaps Whittaker and Buchanan.

I think that's a good idea.

[RadioactiveWaste]

11 minutes ago, sage said:

The trouble with that is, it would have to be a bottom 6 Eredivisie team to get a regular game and then as a forward, are you going to get much possession in games.  

There's going to be pros and cons for every potential move, the manager (and are they likely to change), the club culture, the loan club's youth set up, playing style, money, what the club we're loaning to want and need, the expectations (going for promotion, or midtable, or fighting relegation) - I doubt any loans are ever to the perfect set up or everything the three parties need, but with a bit of thought I'm sure loans the offer some benefit to both clubs and the player can be arranged.

Ultimately, getting youth players into the mens game and up to speed is going to mean taking some hits whilst they're adjusting but you might get the benefits of their ability as well, there's a lot of risk, they're unproven, they are still developing and they will have poor form and make mistakes - that's going to be true for ever player wherever they start plying senior football, weather that's at their parent club or on loan.

 

[Ghost of Clough]

He made it into the final EFL team of the week.

 

[hintonsboots]

Good prospect. Probably needs to order a Bullworker for an intense course pre season. At times he looks like an empty bag of crisps blowing across Pride Park, but we know from his academy record he knows where the onion bag is. Maybe a word in the ear from Sibley re aggression levels ?????

[Tiverton Ram]

On 24/07/2020 at 08:36, Sparkle said:

If we have a bench of 9 players and  5 permitted subs then keep around but if it’s 3 subs from 5 his opportunities would be very limited - a loan for the first part of the season maybe more preferable 

Yes, agreed.