Gone Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 Just now, jimmyp said: Is that not kind of the approach we are taking now? Do you mean lift all restrictions and live with it? Yes, in short and without details, lift all restrictions and live with it. The restrictions are making no difference, other than kill our way of life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 Respiratory diseases get worse in winter. This is a fact. Would any action we took change covid coming back this winter? I doubt it. Last time I saw, we weren't at any excess deaths in the last few months from what we'd expect from a yearly average. Cases aren't doubling each week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 Just now, TexasRam said: Yes, in short and without details, lift all restrictions and live with it. The restrictions are making no difference, other than kill our way of life We're kicking the can down the road. There is increasing news that the vaccine might lessen the deaths from covid, but isn't going to eliminate it. At some point, we're going to have to open up and face it. The question is the damage we'll do to the economy before that happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 6 minutes ago, TexasRam said: In short, live with it like we do with Flu. It’s now a “thing” we have to accept, it here, it’s around us. We have to accept and unfortunately there will be casualties, we can’t keep putting the brakes on our way of life for it. Even if a vaccine is found, again with flu we can’t believe it’ll be the magic cure. I ask all those who think I’m a clown, what’s the plan? What’s the future? I’m intrigued to understand the strategy to bounce back from this. Given your admitted science denying position, I'm not surprised by this line of thinking, but we should point out the clear errors: 1. It's not a 'thing', there exist plenty of countries that have controlled the disease. Just letting it burn is causing untold economic and societal harm countries, while those that have controlled it are indeed recovering. 2. The flu is not one disease, which is part of the reason you need multiple vaccines. Covid-19 is caused by one virus, the SARS CoV-2 virus. As to the future, the plan always should have been to control the disease, and live in the new normal while a vaccine and other more permanent controls could be developed. Countries that went down this path, as noted, are recovering economically now, and the people are living relatively normal lives. As pointed out, where I am, there have not been any shutdowns since around April, and most businesses are operating similarly as they were before the pandemic at this point. It's been nearly 200 days since a significant outbreak, and 85 since the last cases of community transfer at all. That is, a sustainable strategy, that while still not live as it was, is sustainable. If a vaccine comes early next year, which is looking increasingly likely, then that will help accelerate the return to normality through next year. If it is highly effective, and can allow for herd immunity, then great. If other controls are still needed to drive numbers to zero, then the countries which went down the right path from the start have a massive advantage again, though they already have one now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 In somewhat unsurprising news, according to The Times, lockdown 2.0 potentially starts weds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 6 minutes ago, Andicis said: Respiratory diseases get worse in winter. This is a fact. Would any action we took change covid coming back this winter? I doubt it. Last time I saw, we weren't at any excess deaths in the last few months from what we'd expect from a yearly average. Cases aren't doubling each week. So, the disease will hit people harder, so open up? Excess deaths are up by the way. 669 for the week of the 16th, 143 for the week of the 9th, this is trending in the same manner as the recorded Covid deaths. As discussed previously, following trends from deaths, it's doubling between 1 and a half to two weeks. If you count that as a win, then I guess we value human life differently. 5 minutes ago, Andicis said: We're kicking the can down the road. There is increasing news that the vaccine might lessen the deaths from covid, but isn't going to eliminate it. At some point, we're going to have to open up and face it. The question is the damage we'll do to the economy before that happens. What is your source that the vaccines won't be that effective? As to the damage to the economy, as demonstrated previously, places that haven't controlled the virus are being damaged more economically than places that have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 5 minutes ago, maxjam said: In somewhat unsurprising news, according to The Times, lockdown 2.0 potentially starts weds Time to make yet another huge mistake I guess. If the Government are doing this, they better ensure they fund the businesses they're ducking over enough to make sure they don't have to shut down permanently. But I bet they don't. Is the NHS full? No. So why are we shutting down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, maxjam said: In somewhat unsurprising news, according to The Times, lockdown 2.0 potentially starts weds So he good have followed advice and done this in September for 2 weeks. Now we gonna have one for who knows how long with the economy been totally trashed. Great work. And all to pander to the likes of @TexasRam who used to continually post graphs which supposedly suggested that the predictions were ridiculous. The first lockdown went on forever and caused 1000s of deaths because it started too late. Now we've done the same again. People have had enough of listening to lying ex-journalist toffs. Time to start listening to the experts again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyp Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 16 minutes ago, TexasRam said: Yes, in short and without details, lift all restrictions and live with it. The restrictions are making no difference, other than kill our way of life Ok, I don’t believe this is like the flu. But let’s run with the scenario that this is like a really very bad flu season. How would you equip the nhs to deal with it going forwards? We know for example that if we have a bad flu season we sometimes have to cancel a few thousand, sometimes tens of thousands of elective surgeries. Nhs operates at full capacity. In the first wave of covid we know that we cancelled millions of elective surgeries and routine appointments. Second wave of covid and we have tried to keep as much of the nhs operating as possible whilst social distancing, unfortunately we have still seen many hospitals cancel all elective surgeries and reduce services massively. We haven’t had a surge in flu cases yet, so this may or may not also play a roll in future planning. What would you do to ensure the nhs could handle the huge increase in demand ? Also how long would the covid season as such go on for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 1 hour ago, TexasRam said: Laughing emoji because it’ll make no difference what restrictions we put in place we won’t control it, it’s here and we have to learn to live with it. That’s been my stance since March and it wont change. They’re my views and I’ll stand by them if you agree with them or not Edward. And you continually fail to answer how many deaths you are cool with. We had 50k ish deaths with a full on lockdown. How many do you think we'd have had with your wacky ideas? We need to learn how to die with this virus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, Albert said: So, the disease will hit people harder, so open up? Excess deaths are up by the way. 669 for the week of the 16th, 143 for the week of the 9th, this is trending in the same manner as the recorded Covid deaths. As discussed previously, following trends from deaths, it's doubling between 1 and a half to two weeks. If you count that as a win, then I guess we value human life differently. Not to disrespect the loss of life, but 669 isn't that high for the whole of the UK. Is that based on last year or an average over a few years? You can't measure how many will die due to the mental health crisis or from the economic devastation. They're just as important. Or the people don't getting screened for cancer. This disease shouldn't take precedent over everything. 4 minutes ago, Albert said: What is your source that the vaccines won't be that effective? As to the damage to the economy, as demonstrated previously, places that haven't controlled the virus are being damaged more economically than places that have. https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-first-covid-vaccines-likely-to-be-imperfect-and-might-not-prevent-infection-says-taskforce-boss-12116593 Do you consider the USA as having controlled the virus? (Of course you don't) The US economy seems to have bounced back pretty well from opening up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 1 minute ago, ariotofmyown said: So he good have followed advice and done this in September for 2 weeks. Now we gonna have one for who knows how long with the economy been totally trashed. Great work. And all to pander to the likes of @TexasRam who used to continually post graphs which supposedly suggested that the predictions were ridiculous. The first lockdown went on forever and caused 1000s of deaths because it started too late. Now we've done the same again. People have had enough of listening to lying ex-journalist toffs. Time to start listening to the experts again. I don’t understand the English in the 1st paragraph, please explain. As for the rest of the post, what’s the plan? What’s the strategy to cope with this?............I’ll wait Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: And you continually fail to answer how many deaths you are cool with. We had 50k ish deaths with a full on lockdown. How many do you think we'd have had with your wacky ideas? We need to learn how to die with this virus. How many deaths are you cool with due to lockdown? Is cancer, mental health, and general poverty an ok trade off for you? Of course it isn't, but if you want to simplify the argument to rhetoric it's easy to flip it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, Andicis said: Not to disrespect the loss of life, but 669 isn't that high for the whole of the UK. Is that based on last year or an average over a few years? You can't measure how many will die due to the mental health crisis or from the economic devastation. They're just as important. Or the people don't getting screened for cancer. This disease shouldn't take precedent over everything. Good luck with that argument ? 3 minutes ago, Andicis said: Do you consider the USA as having controlled the virus? (Of course you don't) The US economy seems to have bounced back pretty well from opening up. Yup, USA economy is bouncing back nicely. Also, South Africa may have accidentally achieved herd immunity! https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-south-africas-covid-lockdown-may-have-created-herd-immunity-12116494 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: And you continually fail to answer how many deaths you are cool with. We had 50k ish deaths with a full on lockdown. How many do you think we'd have had with your wacky ideas? We need to learn how to die with this virus. We’ve had 50k with my apparent wacky ideas (recorded as covid related) please tell me how many you’re cool with, with the current rules ( please include all deaths related too, loss of income, loneliness, depression and all other indirect causes)......over to you pumpkin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 1 minute ago, maxjam said: Yup, USA economy is bouncing back nicely. Also, South Africa may have accidentally achieved herd immunity! https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-south-africas-covid-lockdown-may-have-created-herd-immunity-12116494 But sage said herd immunity wasn't possible, how can this be.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 5 minutes ago, Andicis said: But sage said herd immunity wasn't possible, how can this be.... Witchcraft ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 9 minutes ago, jimmyp said: Ok, I don’t believe this is like the flu. But let’s run with the scenario that this is like a really very bad flu season. How would you equip the nhs to deal with it going forwards? We know for example that if we have a bad flu season we sometimes have to cancel a few thousand, sometimes tens of thousands of elective surgeries. Nhs operates at full capacity. In the first wave of covid we know that we cancelled millions of elective surgeries and routine appointments. Second wave of covid and we have tried to keep as much of the nhs operating as possible whilst social distancing, unfortunately we have still seen many hospitals cancel all elective surgeries and reduce services massively. We haven’t had a surge in flu cases yet, so this may or may not also play a roll in future planning. What would you do to ensure the nhs could handle the huge increase in demand ? Also how long would the covid season as such go on for? No idea, so I’ll throw it back. How long do we have to hide in our houses before we can return to some sort of reality? I haven’t heard of one strategy on how we will return to normal? Apparently I’m stupid, but I’m yet to hear a solid argument on how and when we can live a life rather than try and just survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 Just now, TexasRam said: No idea, so I’ll throw it back. How long do we have to hide in our houses before we can return to some sort of reality? I haven’t heard of one strategy on how we will return to normal? Apparently I’m stupid, but I’m yet to hear a solid argument on how and when we can live a life rather than try and just survive. There isn't an exit strategy. They have no idea. It's indefinite imprisonment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyp Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 5 minutes ago, TexasRam said: We’ve had 50k with my apparent wacky ideas (recorded as covid related) please tell me how many you’re cool with, with the current rules ( please include all deaths related too, loss of income, loneliness, depression and all other indirect causes)......over to you pumpkin To quote doctor Alex Brown, “I sympathise with the anti-lockdown advocates. The economic and social damage from the pandemic is going to be catastrophic, and probably outweigh the clinical impact of the virus. However, when you see patients fighting for their lives, drowning in air, it reinforces the primacy of our humanity and compassion. Above all we must care for our patients, protect the NHS from being overwhelmed and speak up to prevent transmission.” I know lots of people think the NHS is coping, we can’t ignore the current record waiting lists and cancelled operations though. Surely these will increase ten fold if we lift restrictions. How will the nhs move forward and continue in its current capacity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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