The Politics Thread 2020

[TuffLuff]

3 minutes ago, Chester40 said:

I would suggest no one wants to answer your 'do you know what racism is' question, as it's the most unappealing bear trap I have ever seen. 

Oh yes, please allow me to sally-forth with my middle-aged white man's incredibly knowledgeable reply to be instantly met with high praise and commendation for nailing it first time. 

Isn’t that the point though? No one really knows what it really is, i include myself in that because I haven’t experienced it. So why are posters so certain it’s not an issue? Or that they don’t see colour? We are talking about pages and pages of debate here not an off the cuff little discussion. 

[Chester40]

4 minutes ago, TuffLuff said:

Isn’t that the point though? No one really knows what it really is, i include myself in that because I haven’t experienced it. So why are posters so certain it’s not an issue? Or that they don’t see colour? We are talking about pages and pages of debate here not an off the cuff little discussion. 

In a ideal world maybe its a fair enough if incredibly broad and vague question. But it reads like an invitation to just be pulled apart by certain posters who will deride whatever is said and claim it shows exactly how racist the poster is by then illustrating anything they have missed out. 

I personally don't see any connection to a perceived lack of comment about Marcus Rashford's actions either. Well done him, nothing but praise for him. However, having seen up close how some of these vouchers are distributed and used, I personally have tried to avoid getting drawn into any comment for fear of seeming churlish - and by your perception potentially affected in opinion by his colour. 

[Highgate]

44 minutes ago, jono said:

Not quite. Their crimes were discovered in the lifetime of the statues commissioners. Whole different story. There are living victims. It isn’t really history. It’s current events and vastly vastly different .. so yes the passing of time matters. Or we should be knocking down the colluseum ? I don’t for one minute trivialise the slave trade, but is is history. There are echos that need continued efforts to silence but the hyperbole in the UK over these demos is disproportionate. The thought police and cultural dictators  are out in force and too many moderate voices are too frightened to argue. 

I  enjoy our discourse Highgate. We disagree but we exchange views (yes Besty wasn’t the best example) but I’m going to have to take time out on this thread. I just see so many entrenched positions that it isn’t really worth engaging. There are different views that have validity and reason, but the blind zealotry of some truely disturbs my karma.

Trevor Phillips remarked the other day that the BBC allowed a BLM spokesman to compare without Challenge, Churchill and Hitler

he also said that it was no accident that so many Caribbeans were called Winston. 

I honestly respect your views and enjoy chewing the cud with you as an individual but for the time being I am out of here.

Fair enough, the statues are something of a digression anyway.  Valid point about Saville's victims being living, unlike Colston's. 

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, TuffLuff said:

If people are talking about statues they aren’t talking about the black lives matter movement.

If I can't help to educate those who refuse to learn, ridicule is a good fall-back.

[ramit]

Apparently pulling down and defacing statues has become a global phenomena.  We Icelanders like to imagine that we are well in touch with trends, but this one has so far passed us by.  Most of our statues are of poets, local historic figures and such and as we're too small to have ever conquered anyone or even dreamed of doing so and until recently only knew of other races from books, it's all a bit boring here, no great historic villain to throw eggs at really.  Aside from that, another result from having a tiny population is that we know everyone's else's dirty secrets and they know ours and nobody wants to rock that boat.

[Alph]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

One thing I really would like explaining to me - why on Earth did a number of people in Nuneaton feel moved to 'guard' the statue of Mary Ann Evans?

Maybe worried the people of Coventry might claim her so people have a reason to go to Coventry? 

1 hour ago, TuffLuff said:

If people are talking about statues they aren’t talking about the black lives matter movement.

Good point. I got carried away keep biting. 

Can I blame the media for starting it?

[Mafiabob]

Only statue should be of me for services to the gambling industry. The amount I gave them they could have me carved out of gold and mounted on Markeaton Park

[Highgate]

22 minutes ago, TuffLuff said:

Isn’t that the point though? No one really knows what it really is, i include myself in that because I haven’t experienced it. So why are posters so certain it’s not an issue? Or that they don’t see colour? We are talking about pages and pages of debate here not an off the cuff little discussion. 

I think it's a good question to ask. I would say at it's most fundamental that an individual is racist if they believe that people of another race are morally or intellectually inferior to their own.  If someone believes that then they are a 'hardcore' racist. 

There are lesser forms of racial prejudices such as negative stereotyping along with issues that could be better classified as culturalist or xenophobia.

Institutional racism is different again being the cumulative effect of individual racisms (even unintentional) practiced in social and government institutions that will over time work against people of certain ethnic groups.

There is an even more fundamental question to ask.  Is there any such thing as 'race' with respect to humans?  The term has no basis in genetics or science in general.  There are so many ways you could arbitrarily divide humanity up but the reality is very fuzzy and indistinct.  It just happens that society seems to be convinced that race is all about the melanin. An unreasonable and unfounded conclusion to make...but it seems we are stuck with it for now. 

[TuffLuff]

9 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Maybe worried the people of Coventry might claim her so people have a reason to go to Coventry? 

Good point. I got carried away keep biting. 

Can I blame the media for starting it?

Ofcourse, but be wary of the incoming Defund The BBC campaign that will probably be in full swing once by July hits. Conveniently we will be in Brexit Trade Talks with no extensions, it’ll be interesting to see which one makes the headlines.

[Eddie]

30 minutes ago, Mafiabob said:

Only statue should be of me for services to the gambling industry. The amount I gave them they could have me carved out of gold and mounted on Markeaton Park

Perhaps just holding hands would cause less of a stir.

[Wolfie]

Found this post on FB this morning from a neighbour of my in-laws' in Florida:

I found it sad but hopeful. Anyway, I'll leave it here....

 

As I pulled up in front of the house yesterday and started unloading, a car pulled into our cul de sac. Not too close, but close enough that I knew they were waiting on me. As I bumped the door closed, my hands full, I saw a black man in his thirties standing at the door of a pickup truck, a boy about Sophie's age in the passenger seat.

He asked me if this was 7905, our address, and I said yes.

Then he stepped from the door of his truck, his hands raised a little, palms toward me, and stopped some distance away, further than required by social distancing.

He told me his name, the name of his son, said he attended Doss Elementary School with our Sophie.

"We're here to pick up his class t-shirt," he said.

I realized all of a sudden that all of this--the posture, the detailed explanation, the distance, even his waiting to address me until I had gathered all my things from the car--was to put me at ease. To let me know he belonged in my neighborhood. That he was not a threat of some sort.

And I was stricken. "Of course," I said. I nodded. "I think I saw a bag with your name on it on the front porch." My hands were full, but I motioned with my head. "Please. Come on up."

We walked together toward the front door. He picked up the bag, smiled at me. On the way back, he stopped in the driveway, turned back toward me.

"Have a blessed day," he said.

Then he climbed in the truck and handed the bag to his son, who excitedly pulled out his t-shirt, and I went into the house.

I did not feel blessed. I felt wrecked.

Two dads who love their fifth-grade graduates.

One black, one white.

Two very different experiences, and two very different lives.

I am haunted by his hands, slightly raised, in plain view, I mean no harm.

By his son, watching the entire interaction, learning probably for the thousandth time how a black man has to act to make clear he is not a danger.

By the fact that I never ever had to give my two sons The Talk, the conversation in African American families about how a young black man can maximize his chances to come home alive and unharmed.

And I am haunted that I am only late in my life recognizing in ways large and small how people of color are forced to compensate in ways I have never noticed because I have never had to.

I can't believe I have been asleep my whole life

 

Just maybe there will be some lasting effect from what's happening in the USA at the moment.

[angieram]

11 hours ago, Highgate said:

And as far Marcus Rashford, I'm annoyed at him for making like and admire a Manchester United player.  It doesn't feel right...

And there we have the very definition of discrimination. Lumping a group of people together and judging them by a single characteristic! ?

[cheron85]

16 hours ago, Alpha said:

You can't judge people of the past by the times of today. Would you put up a statue of Colston today? No. 

Slavery in Africa existed internally. African slavers sold slaves to the Europeans. Slaves would be brought to the coast by African slave traders. In that world and all the many years before it slavery was as normal to society as walking dogs on leads is to me and you. 

Colston used this to do great charity work. In the eyes of the people the means were justified. 

Why not judge things that exist today by the standards we want to be set? The statue exists now, so why shouldn't we judge it's worthiness now? I'd suggest that by leaving something in place that we wouldn't choose by our standards we're tacitly consenting to the persons actions

Suggesting slavery was 'normal' isn't a great argument - White Europeans went over with weapons and subjugated entire swathes of people, ripping them from their homes and family, forcing them into conditions where many died to transport them to lands they weren't from, didn't speak the language and then were forced to work for no money - Whether it was standard practice or not it was abhorrent 

15 hours ago, jono said:

Or alternatively consider that in a historical time, historical people decided they would like a statue. Times change people change and subsequent generations LEARN about those differing attitudes because the statue invites inquiry. We will raise our statues and their legacy will be examined by future generations. 

Times change - Just because something was relevant several hundred years ago doesn't mean we need to tolerate it by todays standards

If an old building doesn't meet todays health and safety requirements we don't leave it because it would have met 1950s requirements - We don't let people off crimes today based on laws that existed 50 years ago - So why should we judge statues which people have to walk past every day by any other method?

13 hours ago, jono said:

As usual .. avoid the challenge. Limp 

I didn't avoid anything - You suggested that all statues are art because people travel to see a statue/sculpture made by Michelangelo

I was stating that's not true - Not all statues are art - Some sculptures (specific kind of statue) are, but not all are

Besides, the one you're probably referring to is only art because it's modelled after our illustrious forum leader 

 

[Curtains]

I think rewriting history is very dangerous.
 

Take the Church for instance.

Take the story of Thomas Becket for instance  

 

 

[Archied]

16 hours ago, TuffLuff said:

If we talk about the amazing work of Marcus Rashford, to help unite, rather than Katie Hopkins, that helps us divide, then she will be forced to wind her neck in.

—————

This isn’t directed at you mate but it’ll be interesting to say whether praising a young black manis a bit of stretch for a few in this thread considering we don’t have a problem with race? Been quiet on the matter for a few days now...

Really ? I would be astounded if there’s a single person on this list that would not respect and praise rashford for his work on this , just goes to show what people read into posts and judgements they make ( stretch) , maybe I’m naive but I’ve never seen a post on here that leads me to feel anybody on here is so rabidly racist ?????

[BondJovi]

29 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

If an old building doesn't meet todays health and safety requirements we don't leave it because it would have met 1950s requirements - We don't let people off crimes today based on laws that existed 50 years ago - So why should we judge statues which people have to walk past every day by any other method?

 

Equally though, you can't  go back and arrest someone for something they did years ago legally  which has since become illegal. Do we disown a person we know for that?

It is not as clear cut as you make out. If we eradicated all things that had something to do with slavery we wouldn't have vast amounts of global history.

The next world cup in Qatar has been building stadiums using some form of slave labour, will you watch that? You can take it to extreme levels.

[Curtains]

I say well done to Rashford and I say well done to Starmer but most of all well done Johnson for changing his mind and doing the right thing. 
 

The future may be bleak though for some with the predicted recession after Covid 19. 
 

End of the day things have to be paid for somehow it’s just how is the predicament 

[Archied]

14 hours ago, Highgate said:

I think you risk trivializing the slave trade there if you are comparing it with frequent consensual sex and a weakness for the drink.  That's not comparable to buying and selling human beings for profit.  

I know you didn't intend to belittle the awfulness of slavery, I'm just saying you chose a bad example in George Best. How about Jimmy Saville as an example? His crimes are much closer to the level of awfulness that Colston was guilty of. 

Let's say there was a statue erected to him in his Jim'll Fix It days, when most people just thought of him as a charitable eccentric rather than the monster he was.  Applying yours and @Alpha's logic about respecting historical statues, would you be happy to leave the statue of Jimmy remaining in it's place. Our opinions of Saville have changed in the intervening years but the people who erected it thought it was appropriate at the time. So would tearing down his statue be an unacceptable 'erasing of history' too. ?  Should the quantity of time that has passed really matter?

Not quite sure your example works either , what saville did was against the law at the time he did it , done secretly because of this , imprisonable and behaviour universally deplored by everyone the world over at the time it was done

not saying Colston statue is right just that your example doesn’t work either

[GboroRam]

I find the arguments about tearing down coliseums and art installations a bit spurious. 

Statues are monuments to celebrate people. Literally taking a person and putting them on a pedestal.

Art has it's own function. Buildings have their own function. 

Statues are a celebration of a person. We wouldn't celebrate them today, so why do we need statues to celebrate them if we later decide their actions weren't worthy of celebrating?

The wider discussions are fine - but solely on making an image of a slaver and putting him on a pedestal for all to see how much you revere him, I do think pushes the line.

Quietly pull down the statue, put it in a museum dedicated to life in that period and explain to people the two aspects to this person - the philanthropist who built hospitals for the poor, and the slaver who made the money to pay for it in human blood. 

[cheron85]

9 minutes ago, BondJovi said:

Equally though, you can't  go back and arrest someone for something they did years ago legally  which has since become illegal. Do we disown a person we know for that?

It is not as clear cut as you make out. If we eradicated all things that had something to do with slavery we wouldn't have vast amounts of global history.

This isn't quite the same as stealing a loaf of bread or dealing weed - This is the mass subjugation, displacement and abuse of a people

Of the 12m slaves who entered the Atlantic slave trade around £1.5m died on ships. Between the Atlantic, African and Asian Slave markets (totalling more than 26m slaves) around 4m died in forced marches to ports or in camps on arrival - More than 5m people died (that's the entire population of Ireland)

I'm not saying we eradicate history - In fact I'd like to have more education about these things - But statues don't portray history accurately, they only show the positive - Why not replace it with an information board which shows all of the many good things Colston did but also talk about the fact he was only able to due to his involvement in something so very horrific

21 minutes ago, BondJovi said:

The next world cup in Qatar has been building stadiums using some form of slave labour, will you watch that? You can take it to extreme levels.

If that was happening in my country I'd be up in arms about it - We can only do something about the things we can affect - And statues on our shores is something we can affect