The Politics Thread 2020

[Comrade 86]

4 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

Blimey, did some of you not go to bed last night?

Nothing gets past you Paul ? Day 4!  

I actually have a pal popping some industrial strength sleepers in my letterbox later as they're fretting over my apparently evident lack of sleep. 

[1967Ram]

2 hours ago, Archied said:

Can we all agree now that lockdown is over? when I suggested this at the point of the Cummings affair it was clearly pointed out by some that ignoring the lockdown rules was tantamount to Recklessly killing people and only for those of low moral standards, that appears to have shifted somewhat?

theres no moral high ground here you either believe ANYONE flouting the rules does not give a poo for other human lives/ causing deaths or you don’t ,

ive never agreed with lockdown or the Hotchpotch pretence of lockdown that we’ve seen in this country but have abided by the rules but the death of an American black man and what has followed make it very clear lockdown is unenforceable, in the end most people do what they think is right.

sadly the debate on here regards this subject has yet again descended into name calling and thinly veiled accusations ,sad state of affairs really
 

Maybe they think they're being reasonable and acting with integrity. Is this a case of too many now moving to 'do as they do, not what they tell you to do'? Too many are certainly not following the govt advice now for social distancing. People will have their own views about why this is happening.

[Comrade 86]

3 minutes ago, cstand said:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/whdh.com/news/police-fall-river-man-threw-82-year-old-wearing-trump-hat-to-the-ground-violently-kicked-him/amp/

Everyone an innocent protester pull the other one.

Once again, you've lost me I'm afraid. What does this have to do with my post? If you'd like me to condemn the actions of whoever assaulted the chap you are referring to then consider it done. It's a disgraceful thing to do.

Now.... If you have any evidence that the pensioner I have actually posted about deserved to be thrown on the floor as you yourself suggested yesterday, we can discuss that if you like? 

I might even try and do so calmly.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

11 hours ago, Anon said:

This is absolutely pathetic. A protest about the death of a man in police custody in a different country where the suspect is already arrested and charged.

The honking intensifies.

 

9 hours ago, Van Gritters said:

It’s obvious that people want to try and stir up trouble in this country off the back of what’s happening in the US. 
Absolute dick eds 

It's not just about the death of George Floyd. That's seen as the tip of the iceberg really. The protests in the UK are as much about Floyd as they are about racism that the protesters believe continues to exist in the UK to this day. I'm passing no judgement on whether it's the right thing to do in the current circumstances, but it's not just "stirring up trouble off the back of what's happening in the US".

[DarkFruitsRam7]

8 hours ago, i-Ram said:

I take the view that all lives matter, and you’ll have a job convincing me otherwise.

I have a lot of respect for you, but I'm genuinely disappointed by this comment. I would have thought you'd realise that 'Black Lives Matter' really doesn't mean that 'White Lives Don't Matter'. You don't even have to agree with the movement, the protests or anything to understand what the statement actually means. I know what you're saying in the context of the protests spreading Covid, but the 'all lives matter' statement is often used in a deliberately obtuse way to discredit the issues that black people face.

[Anon]

6 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

 

It's not just about the death of George Floyd. That's seen as the tip of the iceberg really. The protests in the UK are as much about Floyd as they are about racism that the protesters believe continues to exist in the UK to this day. I'm passing no judgement on whether it's the right thing to do in the current circumstances, but it's not just "stirring up trouble off the back of what's happening in the US".

What's it about if not about George Floyd? If this supposed racism in the UK was really so ubiquitous and all encompassing surely there would've been a more relevant instance to rally behind than something that has nothing to do with this country? Or are we to just accept that the situation is so bad in this country that literally any crime committed by law enforcement in any nation is reasonable justification for mass protests here?

[Ghost of Clough]

11 hours ago, ramit said:

No, they charged alright.  The stuff being thrown started some way down the street.

 

Gentle trotting down a very wide street, with plenty of space for people to move out the way. Then, once the horses are are down the street, they get attacked from behind. I’m not sure how anyone can defend the actions of the yobs throwing those missiles. 
If the mounted policeman were trotting down the street preventing people from moving to the side to get out of the way, AND the missiles were being thrown ‘head-on’ in an attempt to spook them, I could somewhat understand it. But, this didn’t happen from what I could see. 

[Comrade 86]

27 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

I have a lot of respect for you, but I'm genuinely disappointed by this comment. I would have thought you'd realise that 'Black Lives Matter' really doesn't mean that 'White Lives Don't Matter'. You don't even have to agree with the movement, the protests or anything to understand what the statement actually means. I know what you're saying in the context of the protests spreading Covid, but the 'all lives matter' statement is often used in a deliberately obtuse way to discredit the issues that black people face.

I agree with your view on BLM but in fairness to @i-Ram he was responding to a fairly cheap shot I'd taken at him and I suspect he shares our view on this.

[GboroRam]

9 hours ago, i-Ram said:

I take the view that all lives matter, and you’ll have a job convincing me otherwise.

 

[DarkFruitsRam7]

26 minutes ago, Anon said:

What's it about if not about George Floyd? If this supposed racism in the UK was really so ubiquitous and all encompassing surely there would've been a more relevant instance to rally behind than something that has nothing to do with this country? Or are we to just accept that the situation is so bad in this country that literally any crime committed by law enforcement in any nation is reasonable justification for mass protests here?

Information spreads so quickly these days that injustice in one country can shine a light on injustices in another in a matter of minutes.

Also, you seem to suggest that the situation in the US is worse than it is in the UK (and rightly so). In that case, I could just throw your argument right back at you. Why are the US protests happening now, when many Floyd-esque incidents have indeed happened over there in recent years? Sometimes the match is struck at just the right time.  Why did the huge civil rights marches happen in the 1960s and not the 1930s? Sometimes things just boil over.

[i-Ram]

@DarkFruitsRam7 thanks for your post.  I suspect you are much better informed on these issues than me, as my only reference points for most matters political come from this forum or the BBC.

I like to think I am a middle of the road kind of guy, although perhaps a bit of a real life anomaly. I have never instigated a fight, been on a protest march nor been politically affiliated, stolen anything (other than a few penny chews), taken any drugs, smoked, or been involved in any meaningless sexual liaison - only the latter is a small regret as I head towards my maker ?

So when I said all lives matter that is actually what I believe although in the context of the discussion that was taking place yesterday. The difficulty nowadays in my humble opinion is that people look to dissect comments and ignore the context, not that I think you are trying to do that above (and yes I acknowledge and understand the fair point the cartoonist is making). 

Enjoy 28 minutes of Stewart Lee on context.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03zdyz5/stewart-lees-comedy-vehicle-series-3-4-context

[cstand]

11 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Once again, you've lost me I'm afraid. What does this have to do with my post? If you'd like me to condemn the actions of whoever assaulted the chap you are referring to then consider it done. It's a disgraceful thing to do.

Now.... If you have any evidence that the pensioner I have actually posted about deserved to be thrown on the floor as you yourself suggested yesterday, we can discuss that if you like? 

I might even try and do so calmly.

No its not about you condemning this assault its about letting people realise that continually whipping an already angry crowd up into a frenzy over Donald Trump etc this will be the consequence or even worse, this is why I don't use twitter or follow anyone on social media.

As for the pensioner walking into riot police for a start I would not let my dad attend I would have locked him in a house for safety reasons.

He deliberately walked into the middle of riot police to provoke a reaction so he could play the victim, he decided to put his own safety at risk, if you play with fire and get burnt you can only blame yourself.

Now if you can give me evidence that he has serious mental health problems then I will be very happy to change my mind.

If any of my family would have done this my reaction would be exactly the same, how stupid can you be to walk into the middle of riot police.

 

 

 

[GboroRam]

13 hours ago, TramRam said:

But you replied.

Not sure I follow your argument. 

The outcome matters, but the semantics don't. Brexit will happen and it will happen on Boris's terms. Terms you and the majority of Brexit supporters largely agree with. 

When you blame remain supporters for not "getting brexit done", remember that Brexit supporters had the majority all the time. It in fact was Boris who stopped it. Because he wouldn't accept a border down the Irish Sea. A border he now has confirmed will be in place post Brexit. 

Boris and Brexit supporters have promised that they will be able to get a good deal. It's oven ready, remember? Now we can forget the arguments. Just get on with it. 

I hope you haven't all fallen for yet more lies from Boris, who engineered this to take power and now is conceding all the things he said we're unacceptable. It would be sad if the great deal he promised was just another lie, don't you agree? 

 

[DarkFruitsRam7]

12 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

@DarkFruitsRam7 thanks for your post.  I suspect you are much better informed on these issues than me, as my only reference points for most matters political come from this forum or the BBC.

I like to think I am a middle of the road kind of guy, although perhaps a bit of a real life anomaly. I have never instigated a fight, been on a protest march nor been politically affiliated, stolen anything (other than a few penny chews), taken any drugs, smoked, or been involved in any meaningless sexual liaison - only the latter is a small regret as I head towards my maker ?

So when I said all lives matter that is actually what I believe although in the context of the discussion that was taking place yesterday. The difficulty nowadays in my humble opinion is that people look to dissect comments and ignore the context, not that I think you are trying to do that above (and yes I acknowledge and understand the fair point the cartoonist is making). 

Enjoy 28 minutes of Stewart Lee on context.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03zdyz5/stewart-lees-comedy-vehicle-series-3-4-context

Thank you for your reply. 

I did try and acknowledge that I could see where you were coming from in the context of the discussion, though I probably should have made that clearer rather than tagging it on at the end of my post (you might not have even seen that part, as I edited the original post after about five minutes). I suppose my main point was that the 'All Lives Matter' line is one usually (emphasis on usually!) used by people who, to put it harshly, are a bit thick and are completely unwilling to even consider the meaning behind 'Black Lives Matter'. I know you're the complete opposite of that, which is why I was eager to reply and tell you how the comment might be perceived, even in context.

As for Stewart Lee, I'm afraid I don't share the same love for his comedy as many on here do! 

[DarkFruitsRam7]

30 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Information spreads so quickly these days that injustice in one country can shine a light on injustices in another in a matter of minutes.

Also, you seem to suggest that the situation in the US is worse than it is in the UK (and rightly so). In that case, I could just throw your argument right back at you. Why are the US protests happening now, when many Floyd-esque incidents have indeed happened over there in recent years? Sometimes the match is struck at just the right time.  Why did the huge civil rights marches happen in the 1960s and not the 1930s? Sometimes things just boil over.

Also, @Anon, I think it's accepted that the race issues that exist in the UK are not as obvious as they are in the US. @Alpha and I (with varying opinions) have discussed the subtler issues that BAME people face in the UK, and I cited a study about the differing success rates of job applicants called Adam and Mohammed (I know that relates to Muslims and not black people, but I think it's still relevant). A study like that is hardly going to inspire people to take to the streets and demand change, even if it demonstrates the institutional problems that exist. Something more dramatic is obviously needed, even if it happens in another country.

Apologies for not thinking of this and including it in my original post.

[GboroRam]

7 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

As for Stewart Lee, I'm afraid I don't share the same love for his comedy as many on here do! 

You've just ruined every good point you made. 

[Comrade 86]

 

30 minutes ago, cstand said:

No its not about you condemning this assault its about letting people realise that continually whipping an already angry crowd up into a frenzy over Donald Trump etc this will be the consequence or even worse, this is why I don't use twitter or follow anyone on social media.

As for the pensioner walking into riot police for a start I would not let my dad attend I would have locked him in a house for safety reasons.

He deliberately walked into the middle of riot police to provoke a reaction so he could play the victim, he decided to put his own safety at risk, if you play with fire and get burnt you can only blame yourself.

Now if you can give me evidence that he has serious mental health problems then I will be very happy to change my mind.

If any of my family would have done this my reaction would be exactly the same, how stupid can you be to walk into the middle of riot police.

If I'm honest mate, that makes absolutely FA sense to me at all. Perhaps if you could actually finish the point you're making before moving on, only to return to it a few paragraphs later, I might actually take the time out to try and address the point you're trying to make, but in all honesty, I'm tired and I can't be arsed. 

The one bit I do understand is your insistence that the old boy who got his head cracked open deserved it. Given your stance on that (likewise the fella who was applauding your posts), it's probably best we just leave it there really.

Good chat though ?

[ramit]

43 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Gentle trotting down a very wide street, with plenty of space for people to move out the way. Then, once the horses are are down the street, they get attacked from behind. I’m not sure how anyone can defend the actions of the yobs throwing those missiles. 
If the mounted policeman were trotting down the street preventing people from moving to the side to get out of the way, AND the missiles were being thrown ‘head-on’ in an attempt to spook them, I could somewhat understand it. But, this didn’t happen from what I could see. 

Did the use of mounted police help calm the situation and keep order or did it do the opposite?  It´s an intimidating show of force at a protest against police overuse of force.  Not the wisest of actions IMO.  To be clear, i am not condoning any violence at that demonstration, but rather pointing out that perhaps it could have been largely avoided.

[Eddie]

2 hours ago, cstand said:

So it’s nothing to do with the death of a black man it’s all about any excuse for a riot and blame Donald Trump. Before this kicked off I wanted Candance Owens to stand for office and get rid of Trump but I am going to laugh my socks off if he gets a second term the rioters deserve him to be re-elected.

What has that article got to do with the ongoing protest? Absolutely nothing.

Are you actually incapable of comprehending the fact that this is the 'Politics' thread, and that it is quite possible for more than a single subject to be discussed simultaneously?

[cstand]

55 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

I have a lot of respect for you, but I'm genuinely disappointed by this comment. I would have thought you'd realise that 'Black Lives Matter' really doesn't mean that 'White Lives Don't Matter'. You don't even have to agree with the movement, the protests or anything to understand what the statement actually means. I know what you're saying in the context of the protests spreading Covid, but the 'all lives matter' statement is often used in a deliberately obtuse way to discredit the issues that black people face.

'all lives matter' statement is often used in a deliberately obtuse way to discredit the issues that black people face. 

WTF

'all lives matter' statement is deliberately used to stop people from rioting so innocent people are not killed, injured, and have their homes and businesses trashed.

Well I worked with a few black people in a factory years ago with no problems but back then we did not have the nasty vile divisive identity politics of today designed by left to claim the BAME vote for themselves with no thought of the damage that it will do to our society.