The Politics Thread 2020

[i-Ram]

4 hours ago, GboroRam said:

Ok, after a number of complaints about politics in the coronavirus thread, I've moved everything I can find about the orange one or disinfectant to the politics thread. Please try to steer politics in that direction. 

Thank you all for your help. 

Thanks for your guidance.

[Angry Ram]

3 hours ago, Highgate said:

I actually agree with you on Biden, he is a depressing choice for the Democratic nomination.  There were about12 candidates in the primary race who would have made a better president than Joe in my opinion.  But the Democratic party  feel that Biden had the best chance of beating Trump.  Maybe they are right, I don't know. 

It is ironic that you highlighted Biden's creepiness, given that he is running against probably the creepiest Presidential candidate in living memory in Trump. But you are also correct, Republican voters and Democratic voters (of the progressive variety) may well have completely different reactions to such allegations, and some of those who may have wished to vote against Trump may just sit it out instead.  Not a wise or forgivable move in my opinion, but it may happen.  That's why Biden must, above all else woo Sanders voters in this election campaign. He needs them. 

I agree Biden would generally be better off saying nothing at all, but I don't understand your view that Trump will 'tear him to shreds'.  You seem to be confusing Trump with a competent or logical debater.  Trump will repeat his catchphrase 'Sleepy Joe' and throw repeated insults no doubt and his base will lap it up.  However, anyone who is capable of being impressed by those sort of antics is surely already voting for Trump. He's not going to convince the undecided voter with that nonsense.  And Trump is not going to be able to debate Biden on policy, because that would actually necessitate Trump learning some details regarding Biden's, or indeed his own, policies.  Those debates, however they occur, will be ridiculous and depressing but they won't change many minds, unless one of the candidates says something incredibly stupid.  That's a possibility with both those candidates I suppose.

I would have liked to have seen a Warren, Harris, Brooker, Buttigieg or Sanders have the opportunity to debate Trump and forensically and logically take apart his record and policy.  All far more intelligent people than Trump is and he would only have his witless insults as a retort.  Sadly that's not to be, it's Trump v Biden, sad times indeed.  And yet, it's imperative that Biden wins. 

Like him or not, you clearly underestimate the man. If he loses this election it will be because he drops a major clanger and not because of Biden. Again the left pull out entirely the wrong candidate to oppose what in essence should be a complete walkover. Will they never learn.  

[Gritstone Ram]

1 hour ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

From The Daily Mail

NHS doctors are being told they DON'T need to list Covid-19 on death certificates of coronavirus patients, leaked documents reveal

Hospital guidance was obtained by not-for-profit organisation Good Law Project

Tells medics 'pneumonia or community-acquired pneumonia are acceptable'

Says Covid-19 may be mentioned in other areas of form 'should the doctor wish'

 

The leaked hospital guidance, obtained by not-for-profit organisation Good Law Project, tells medics filling in death certificates that 'pneumonia or community-acquired pneumonia are acceptable' to put as the direct cause of death.

The guidance, which is titled 'guidance for death certification of proven Covid-19 patients during the current pandemic', says proven coronavirus deaths must be reported to the hospital site manager.

But under the header 'general principles' it adds: 'There is no requirement to write Covid-19 as part of the medical certificate of cause of death (MCCD).'

Full story here... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8227035/NHS-doctors-told-DONT-need-list-Covid-19-death-certificates-coronavirus-patients.html

Can you provide evidence of the 'many doctors' who are being pressured please - ta! No Twatter bots this time or obscure right wing blogs, something vaguely credible.

What are you saying? Everything in the Daily Mail is now true?

[Comrade 86]

10 minutes ago, Van Gritters said:

What are you saying? Everything in the Daily Mail is now true?

Have you read the article and if so, which bits are you saying are not true, or are you simply trying to deflect? Would you like further citations from different sources?

[GboroRam]

44 minutes ago, Gaspode said:

The answer to all these should be in the POLITICS thread ?

Oh balls. Sorry! 

[Comrade 86]

1 minute ago, GboroRam said:

Oh balls. Sorry! 

I think it's almost an impossible task because the way that not only our own government, but others too, are handling the crisis and the reasons behind their strategies are absolutely part and parcel of the CV-19 debate. 

[Gritstone Ram]

4 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Have you read the article and if so, which bits are you saying are not true, or are you simply trying to deflect? Would you like further citations from different sources?

The Coronavirus is a reportable disease so I suspect that it will have to be reported and monitored. 
Also we really want to come out this lockdown really early that’s why the government are buckling to Labour who are demanding an exit strategy even though we are very low on scientific evidence and now you are pointing out the death rates may be a lot more. 
The quicker the better to get a second spike if we’re lucky yeah let’s go for it.

Anyway Boris is back tomorrow a boost for the country and he’ll get things sorted.

[Bob The Badger]

1 hour ago, TramRam said:

A question for you Bob, Our press, Journalists, News media ie TV, Will go for a headline grabbing news article, Whether it being a "cut" interview, Or a slight on the truth from a Minister, Or just "fake news" to make our Government look like incapable of coming to terms with Covid-19.

What's your equivalent like?

So MSNBC and CNN are clearly anti-Trump and it frustrates and annoys me when they ask leading questions because it helps nobody.

I said to @G STAR RAM in another answer that I get pizzed off with some on the left who aren't able to retain a sense of balance.

And by that, I meant (largely) the Progressive wing of the Democratic Party and some in the media.

I've personally not seen any of the main news organizations that lean left actually make stuff up, but I have seen them exaggerate or spin stories.

On the flip side, Fox News, Breitbart and OAN on the right clearly make crap up.

I do wish the more liberal news programs would try and take the high ground. And like the New York Times, Washington Post or independent organisations like Associate Press and Reuters, just report the facts unless it's clearly an op-ed type of show.  

I do read the US versions of The Guardian and The Independent and whereas the former obviously leans quite heavily to the left, the reporting seems to be honest and less sensational than CNN or MSNBC.

I don't tend to read The Daily Mail or The Daily Mirror, but when I have on occasions they seem more OTT than CNN or MSNBC.

But there isn't an equivalent of the Mail or Mirror over here. On a national front there is only the non-descript USA Today and I guess the New York Times, everything else is regionalised or on TV.

Sooo, that's a long winded way of saying on balance it's probably similar, but I'm guessing you will see greater extremes.

[Highgate]

1 hour ago, Bob The Badger said:

Going to take issue with @Highgate here because it was doing well under every measure.

Trump's first three years were remarkably similar to Obama's last 3 years with Obama having the slight edge over everything except the stock market.

Also, you have to take into account that Obama walked into the worst recession since the Great Depression, whereas Trump walked into a strong economy that was trending upward.

The economy was going to collapse with or without the pandemic because it was artificially hiked by Trump.

He did two things to avoid it taking it's *natural* course.

Normally in a booming economy you have to raise interest rates to stop it overheating and inflation running rampant, but Trump was constantly pushing the Fed to lower rates even musing on Twitter whether he should fire the head.

The Federal Reserve, like the Bank of England, is mean to be independent, but Trump doesn't care for things like that.

So we had crazy low interest rates in a booming economy, something that is almost unprecedented. 

Then (or rather before to be accurate) he gave huge corporate tax breaks out under the guise of reducing the tax debt on individuals and families.

He did do that latter, but something like 90% of the benefit went to the wealthy and big corporations. You know, the people and businesses who vote and give money to  the Republican Party.

By doing this he exploded the national debt, something he said he'd not do and something that is anathema to old school conservatives.

Well that's one measure right there.  However I think your points are very good ones.

Unemployment figures were very good obviously and the stock market was booming.  But isn't the stock market always going to boom if you slash corporation tax and income tax to the wealthy?  Companies become more profitable and the rich have more money to invest.....hence stocks will go up.  But government tax revenue will go down obviously.

Also isn't personal debt still extremely high in Trump's economy? ..And how are the real wages.  These are far more important indicators of the health of an economy than the stock market as far as I'm concerned.

https://theconversation.com/real-pay-data-show-trumps-blue-collar-boom-is-more-of-a-bust-for-us-workers-in-3-charts-131264

Also any economy whose 'boom' is partially based on burning more native fossil fuels is deluding itself.  The price will be paid later.

 

[CWC1983]

9 hours ago, Angry Ram said:

Have to agree about Sturgeon. I normally have no time for her and her one policy but she has been brilliant in her briefings. Is the press pack up there trying to trip her up at every opportunity? I dunno. However she has Impressed me greatly during this period.

 

She doesnt do the Sunday briefing but I listened to the briefing today and I thought the journalists were definitely a  bit more confrontational with the questions to the Health secretary and clinical director. 

I heard she was on the Andrew Marr show this morning but I didnt see it. 

[Bob The Badger]

40 minutes ago, Angry Ram said:

Like him or not, you clearly underestimate the man. If he loses this election it will be because he drops a major clanger and not because of Biden. Again the left pull out entirely the wrong candidate to oppose what in essence should be a complete walkover. Will they never learn.  

There are only two ways Trump wins this election.

1. If Biden's mental impairment becomes so apparent and the Dems do nothing and it scares the electorate. I think this could happen.

2. The virus (as Trump has suggested) really does go away and there is an almost end-of-war type euphoria.

Trump's only saving grace was the economy and that is tanking harder than at any time in history.

It doesn't matter that the virus isn't his fault, when people are out of work and businesses are closing down people blame the guy in charge.

Trump's base of around 42% will never abandon him, but that doesn't come close to getting him elected.

He won last time by picking up independents who wanted a change.

But more importantly, he picked them up in key counties that swung important States like Michigan, Florida and Wisconsin.

Michigan's unemployment rate has jumped from (I think) 4% to closer to 17%.

To lose, Trump only has to lose tens of thousands of independents or Republicans, it's not even hundreds of thousands.

I predicted Trump would win last time because Clinton was so unpopular with too many Dems, especially those who thought Bernie had been shafted (and he was).

That hasn't happened this time.

The Democratic Party is more united behind Biden than it was behind even Obama the first time.

Within the Party there is zero dissention when last time they were fighting right up to the conference, and there you had Bernie supporters walking out.

Bernie, and Warren for that matter, are strongly supporting Biden so the dems can get on with planning.

I don't see any path for Trump other than the two I suggested and fwiw the polls don't even have it close, Biden is way out in front.

[Norman]

13 minutes ago, Highgate said:

Well that's one measure right there.  However I think your points are very good ones.

Unemployment figures were very good obviously and the stock market was booming.  But isn't the stock market always going to boom if you slash corporation tax and income tax to the wealthy?  Companies become more profitable and the rich have more money to invest.....hence stocks will go up.  But government tax revenue will go down obviously.

Also isn't personal debt still extremely high in Trump's economy? ..And how are the real wages.  These are far more important indicators of the health of an economy than the stock market as far as I'm concerned.

https://theconversation.com/real-pay-data-show-trumps-blue-collar-boom-is-more-of-a-bust-for-us-workers-in-3-charts-131264

Also any economy whose 'boom' is partially based on burning more native fossil fuels is deluding itself.  The price will be paid later.

 

So, so complicated. 

You sure couldn't be dumb to run such a massive economy. 

But then there's advisors. And thankfully advisors stretch to the health sector as well. Just in case you make a dumb, ignorant comment. 

[Norman]

6 minutes ago, Bob The Badger said:

There are only two ways Trump wins this election.

1. If Biden's mental impairment becomes so apparent and the Dems do nothing and it scares the electorate. I think this could happen.

2. The virus (as Trump has suggested) really does go away and there is an almost end-of-war type euphoria.

Trump's only saving grace was the economy and that is tanking harder than at any time in history.

It doesn't matter that the virus isn't his fault, when people are out of work and businesses are closing down people blame the guy in charge.

Trump's base of around 42% will never abandon him, but that doesn't come close to getting him elected.

He won last time by picking up independents who wanted a change.

But more importantly, he picked them up in key counties that swung important States like Michigan, Florida and Wisconsin.

Michigan's unemployment rate has jumped from (I think) 4% to closer to 17%.

To lose, Trump only has to lose tens of thousands of independents or Republicans, it's not even hundreds of thousands.

I predicted Trump would win last time because Clinton was so unpopular with too many Dems, especially those who thought Bernie had been shafted (and he was).

That hasn't happened this time.

The Democratic Party is more united behind Biden than it was behind even Obama the first time.

Within the Party there is zero dissention when last time they were fighting right up to the conference, and there you had Bernie supporters walking out.

Bernie, and Warren for that matter, are strongly supporting Biden so the dems can get on with planning.

I don't see any path for Trump other than the two I suggested and fwiw the polls don't even have it close, Biden is way out in front.

A lot of wasted typing. You should have stopped at 1.

He will be too busy smelling 13 year old girls hair. And telling them 'if I was younger' 

[Archied]

2 hours ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

From The Daily Mail

NHS doctors are being told they DON'T need to list Covid-19 on death certificates of coronavirus patients, leaked documents reveal

Hospital guidance was obtained by not-for-profit organisation Good Law Project

Tells medics 'pneumonia or community-acquired pneumonia are acceptable'

Says Covid-19 may be mentioned in other areas of form 'should the doctor wish'

 

The leaked hospital guidance, obtained by not-for-profit organisation Good Law Project, tells medics filling in death certificates that 'pneumonia or community-acquired pneumonia are acceptable' to put as the direct cause of death.

The guidance, which is titled 'guidance for death certification of proven Covid-19 patients during the current pandemic', says proven coronavirus deaths must be reported to the hospital site manager.

But under the header 'general principles' it adds: 'There is no requirement to write Covid-19 as part of the medical certificate of cause of death (MCCD).'

Full story here... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8227035/NHS-doctors-told-DONT-need-list-Covid-19-death-certificates-coronavirus-patients.html

Can you provide evidence of the 'many doctors' who are being pressured please - ta! No Twatter bots this time or obscure right wing blogs, something vaguely credible.

Are you including 77th brigade in all this information/ disinformation fog , 

seems to me politicians are looking increasingly to be not running the show and lost , even trump megalomania seems steamrollered 

let’s hope there’s not a money trail somewhere

[Highgate]

43 minutes ago, Angry Ram said:

Like him or not, you clearly underestimate the man. If he loses this election it will be because he drops a major clanger and not because of Biden. Again the left pull out entirely the wrong candidate to oppose what in essence should be a complete walkover. Will they never learn.  

So do you like him or not?  

I can hardly be accused of being a Biden fan. I think he is a really poor candidate.  And he's definitely not 'the left' and neither is the Democratic Party establishment.

What candidate should they have chosen from the 20 or so in the primary race, or even outside the race.  Who would have stood the best chance of defeating Trump ?

Do I underestimate him?  He understands his voter, he seems to know what they want and tries to give them exactly that....or least give the impression that he is doing so.  He's has spectacularly sidelined the media for a large part of his presidency to a point where a large part of the US now don't believe a word they hear from most media sources.  He is a skilled reality TV star,  none of those skills make him suitable to be a good president.  In what areas do you think I underestimate him ?

[Eddie]

2 hours ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

So you have none, just spouting unsubstantiated rubbish yet again. Glad we cleared that up. And doesn't the above make you part of the far left clique yourself. If not, what the point you're making by posting it? ?

He was being sarcastic?

 

[Highgate]

10 minutes ago, Norman said:

So, so complicated. 

You sure couldn't be dumb to run such a massive economy. 

But then there's advisors. And thankfully advisors stretch to the health sector as well. Just in case you make a dumb, ignorant comment. 

Of course you could be.  The economy would continue on regardless,  I wouldn't blame Trump for not fully understanding his economy, economics is getting far too complex for any one person to understand.

However, if we are to take Trump at his word, then he clearly doesn't understand how a simple thing like tariffs work.  Or he could be lying and is just trying to convince his voters that China is paying the US millions in tariffs.  Ignorant or lying...it's the perennial question with Trump. 

[TramRam]

36 minutes ago, Bob The Badger said:

So MSNBC and CNN are clearly anti-Trump and it frustrates and annoys me when they ask leading questions because it helps nobody.

I said to @G STAR RAM in another answer that I get pizzed off with some on the left who aren't able to retain a sense of balance.

And by that, I meant (largely) the Progressive wing of the Democratic Party and some in the media.

I've personally not seen any of the main news organizations that lean left actually make stuff up, but I have seen them exaggerate or spin stories.

On the flip side, Fox News, Breitbart and OAN on the right clearly make crap up.

I do wish the more liberal news programs would try and take the high ground. And like the New York Times, Washington Post or independent organisations like Associate Press and Reuters, just report the facts unless it's clearly an op-ed type of show.  

I do read the US versions of The Guardian and The Independent and whereas the former obviously leans quite heavily to the left, the reporting seems to be honest and less sensational than CNN or MSNBC.

I don't tend to read The Daily Mail or The Daily Mirror, but when I have on occasions they seem more OTT than CNN or MSNBC.

But there isn't an equivalent of the Mail or Mirror over here. On a national front there is only the non-descript USA Today and I guess the New York Times, everything else is regionalised or on TV.

Sooo, that's a long winded way of saying on balance it's probably similar, but I'm guessing you will see greater extremes.

Thanks.

I'm now watching GET ME ROGER STONE, My has he got a face you'd like to smack, And as for MAGA, That belonged to Ronald Reagon, Trump maybe President but it's people like Stone that put him there while making 100s of millions of $s along the way.....ie, Dominic Cummings and Boris Johnson must have taken a leaf out of his book.

[Norman]

5 minutes ago, Highgate said:

Of course you could be.  The economy would continue on regardless,  I wouldn't blame Trump for not fully understanding his economy, economics is getting far too complex for any one person to understand.

However, if we are to take Trump at his word, then he clearly doesn't understand how a simple thing like tariffs work.  Or he could be lying and is just trying to convince his voters that China is paying the US millions in tariffs.  Ignorant or lying...it's the perennial question with Trump. 

Then don't be writing posts blaming Boris or anyone in in the future during a recession. 

Because it would be coming anyway. Doesn't matter what you do. Apparently.

[A Ram for All Seasons]

29 minutes ago, Norman said:

But then there's advisors. And thankfully advisors stretch to the health sector as well. Just in case you make a dumb, ignorant comment

He fires them all though.