The Politics Thread 2020

[Uptherams]

11 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

"Not being better prepared with PPE is a mistake".

"I'm not saying that there isn't PPE shortages".

So we could have been better prepared?

You think going ahead with Cheltenham wasn't a mistake? You think giving everyone enough warning to go out for one last piss-up wasn't a mistake?

Are these things not facts?

As more and more data is released, Cheltenham going ahead isn't looking like a mistake at all and I'm saying that as someone who thought it was a huge mistake. 

The NHS is not overcrowded. Capacity was increased and demand never caught up. 

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/

Infection fatality rate of 0.1% - 0.36%.

Sample of 1000 people in Germany indicated IFR of 0.37% and 14% of people had antibodies already. IFR much lower among certain demographics. Which means the IFR is expected to lower significantly as most of the people who die early on, are those at significantly higher risk and the measures expected to be taken in most countries, of those who are very high risk, to remain in isolation. 

Not only comparable to seasonal flu, but less deadly potentially too. 

[maxjam]

4 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

As more and more data is released, Cheltenham going ahead isn't looking like a mistake at all and I'm saying that as someone who thought it was a huge mistake. 

The NHS is not overcrowded. Capacity was increased and demand never caught up. 

Thats the key point.  The NHS whilst under pressure is well below capacity, people are dying because we simply have no means to save them.

The scary thing is, covid-19 won't go away next month or whenever the country (and world) reopens.  People will still be dying in there hundreds and thousands, its just they will have a hospital bed to die in ?

[Stive Pesley]

1 minute ago, maxjam said:

The scary thing is, covid-19 won't go away next month or whenever the country (and world) reopens.  People will still be dying in there hundreds and thousands, its just they will have a hospital bed to die in ?

Indeed. That's where I don't get this stupid idea from the hard-of-thinking that somehow the fact we've managed to control the numbers via lockdown is evidence that the whole thing is OTT, we over-reacted and we should just go back to normal. Like the meteor has just missed us, so as you were everyone

 

 

[Norman]

52 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

"Not being better prepared with PPE is a mistake".

"I'm not saying that there isn't PPE shortages".

So we could have been better prepared?

You think going ahead with Cheltenham wasn't a mistake? You think giving everyone enough warning to go out for one last piss-up wasn't a mistake?

Are these things not facts?

I never disagreed with the large crowd points. But you can't just impose lockdowns when you say so. All your public services need new laws and guidance. 

Shortages of PPE seem to be in certain areas, so who knows where the mismanagement is? 

[Uptherams]

58 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Indeed. That's where I don't get this stupid idea from the hard-of-thinking that somehow the fact we've managed to control the numbers via lockdown is evidence that the whole thing is OTT, we over-reacted and we should just go back to normal. Like the meteor has just missed us, so as you were everyone

 

 

Yet the experts recommend this so long as the healthcare system has capacity. With restrictions on mass gatherings to prevent huge spikes. The studies they are conducting back this up. 

[GboroRam]

52 minutes ago, Norman said:

I never disagreed with the large crowd points. But you can't just impose lockdowns when you say so. All your public services need new laws and guidance. 

Shortages of PPE seem to be in certain areas, so who knows where the mismanagement is? 

I said not introducing more lockdown sooner. Not lock everything down sooner. 

It's a very difficult balancing act, allowing the infection to spread to a maximum number of non-vulnerable people without saturating the health service. But it feels like mistakes were made. Why were we not testing temperatures at the airports as the WHO were recommending? Who decided that we didn't need to? 

[Archied]

2 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I said not introducing more lockdown sooner. Not lock everything down sooner. 

It's a very difficult balancing act, allowing the infection to spread to a maximum number of non-vulnerable people without saturating the health service. But it feels like mistakes were made. Why were we not testing temperatures at the airports as the WHO were recommending? Who decided that we didn't need to? 

I find the whole following the science being used as a scape goat for everything very trying now , of course the science is very important but the gov have to take the science on board and make decisions, at the moment it seems gov will Happily take praise for decisions deemed good but claim they are / were following instructions ( science ) when things not so good

[Wolfie]

12 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

It's a very difficult balancing act, allowing the infection to spread to a maximum number of non-vulnerable people without saturating the health service. But it feels like mistakes were made. Why were we not testing temperatures at the airports as the WHO were recommending? Who decided that we didn't need to? 

It doesn't help much when people can be contagious for 2 weeks without showing any symptoms.

[GboroRam]

43 minutes ago, Van Wolfie said:

It doesn't help much when people can be contagious for 2 weeks without showing any symptoms.

It certainly doesn't hurt. If half the infected were stopped, we could have halved the peak. 

[GboroRam]

14 hours ago, ramit said:

Almost as if the intent is to spread this thing continuously and we can all catch it again and again and be locked down forever, unless we get chipped.

Lovely, just freaking lovely

 

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

I find the whole following the science being used as a scape goat for everything very trying now , of course the science is very important but the gov have to take the science on board and make decisions, at the moment it seems gov will Happily take praise for decisions deemed good but claim they are / were following instructions ( science ) when things not so good

Yes, and it doesn't help that our political class has solidified so hard into majority public school, entitled upper classes that they genuinely didn't think that any of this would affect them directly. The same as when you ask someone like Jacob Rees Mogg if he could survive on the amount of Universal Credit someone gets - they will never have to, so they don't actually care. In which case - why are they the ones making the decisions on the stuff that will never affect them?  I'm afraid it's been painfully obvious for a long time that our politicians don't represent us adequately. But while they can divide and conquer over party political lines, they continue to get away with it. When you find yourself in the midst of a crisis that affects everyone equally - then it really does become clear that these people have no idea what they are doing. The daily briefings are just pathetic

 

[Bob The Badger]

It's barely credible that the President of the United States tweeted this.

 

[Comrade 86]

3 hours ago, Uptherams said:

It's a systemic issue. Easier to try and blame the government than place the blame on those involved and responsible for auditing, ordering and delivering PPE throughout the NHS and other services and sectors. The UK could have tenfold the PPE it needed and there would still be areas which run out through miss management. 

Your repeated assertions that the reason that the NHS is short of PPE is because of misuse and mismanagement are starting to wear a little thin.

Stop presenting your opinions as facts. You've provided literally zero in the way of evidence and citations to support any of these posts, so criticising those who are at the frontline of the fight against this virus, all from the comfort of your armchair, is nothing short of embarrassing. 

[Uptherams]

23 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Your repeated assertions that the reason that the NHS is short of PPE is because of misuse and mismanagement are starting to wear a little thin.

Stop presenting your opinions as facts. You've provided literally zero in the way of evidence and citations to support any of these posts, so criticising those who are at the frontline of the fight against this virus, all from the comfort of your armchair, is nothing short of embarrassing. 

Here we go. Another one of your emotionally charged political rants. I'm not criticising doctor's and nurses on the front line, except for those who are proven to be activists and don't have any facts to back up their claims. Figures within the NHS are continually coming forward at every assertion, saying there is no wide scale shortage. 

The NHS is the biggest employer in the UK. It would be irrational to expect any organisation of this size, not to experience acute shortages, caused through systemic problems and mismanagement. Of which, the responsibility falls upon people who are not only not front line nurses and doctors, but often, not even medical professionals. 

Edit:

And to be clear, I'm not criticising them. They are doing a fantastic job. Those responsible. Mismanagement and systemic issues are inevitable. 

[King Kevin]

20 hours ago, Angry Ram said:

I wish someone would explain to me now what exactly racism is now..

If I employ a white guy over a black guy, is that racist?

If I employ a black guy over a white guy, is that racist?

if I tell a joke about an Englishman, Scotsman and an Irishman, is that racist?

Are there now degrees of racism? It seems to me just about everything has a racist connotation if you look deep enough or are willing to be offended enough.. Or just want to throw some dirt and take the moral high ground. 
 

 

My old man had a saying the right bloke for the job was the one who knew the most ,could drink the most and was the best at scrapping .Different times .

[Comrade 86]

35 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

Here we go. Another one of your emotionally charged political rants.

There's nothing 'emotionally charged' about my post. Once again you feel you have to insinuate that there are reasons other than 'emotional ones' for me finding your opinions presented as facts rather tedious. 

35 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

I'm not criticising doctor's and nurses on the front line, except for those who are proven to be activists and don't have any facts to back up their claims.

Fine - given you assert this is factual. who are these 'NHS activists' and what evidence do you have for labelling them as such? I'm simply asking you to back up your assertions which should be a relatively simple process, should it not?

35 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

Figures within the NHS are continually coming forward at every assertion, saying there is no wide scale shortage. 

Again, provide citations to back up this argument. Who are these figures?

 

35 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

The NHS is the biggest employer in the UK. It would be irrational to expect any organisation of this size, not to experience acute shortages, caused through systemic problems and mismanagement.

Yet another assumption. The government itself has admitted that PPE stockpiles dwindled by over 40% between 2010 and the present so should we take it that it is your assertion that this was purely as a result of 'mismanagement' on behalf of the NHS itself rather than a shortage of funding to maintain said stockpiles?

 

35 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

And to be clear, I'm not criticising them. They are doing a fantastic job. Those responsible. Mismanagement and systemic issues are inevitable. 

So it's the fault of NHS procurement departments that in their hour of need, there are no available supplies for them to order from?

And you are criticising frontline staff when you infer that they are simply moaning about the shortage of PPE as part of their 'activist' agenda as opposed to the fact that NHS staff are being asked to reuse gowns and the like or in some case, work without PPE altogether.

So I'll ask you once more - back up your assertion that there is plenty of PPE equipment available, because your argument that because 'some hospitals are not experiencing shortfalls' proves there is no shortfall is frankly ridiculous.

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, Bob The Badger said:

It's barely credible that the President of the United States tweeted this.

 

Did his people make this or is it some kid and Trump retweeted it? 

[Uptherams]

9 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

There's nothing 'emotionally charged' about my post. Once again you feel you have to insinuate that there are reasons other than 'emotional ones' for me finding your opinions presented as facts rather tedious. 

Fine - given you assert this is factual. who are these 'NHS activists' and what evidence do you have for labelling them as such? I'm simply asking you to back up your assertions which should be a relatively simple process, should it not?

Again, provide citations to back up this argument. Who are these figures?

 

Yet another assumption. The government itself has admitted that PPE stockpiles dwindled by over 40% between 2010 and the present so should we take it that it is your assertion that this was purely as a result of 'mismanagement' on behalf of the NHS itself rather than a shortage of funding to maintain said stockpiles?

 

So it's the fault of NHS procurement departments that in their hour of need, there are no available supplies for them to order from. And you are criticising frontline staff when you infer that they are simply moaning about the shortage of PPE as part of their 'activist' agenda as opposed to the fact that NHS staff are being asked to reuse gowns and the like or in some case, work without PPE altogether.

So I'll ask you once more - back up your assertion that there is plenty of PPE equipment available, because your argument that because 'some hospitals are not experiencing shortfalls' proves there is no shortfall is frankly ridiculous.

Once you stop shaking, you can go back and read what I've said, properly. You're being completely irrational. You are the one wanting to blame blame blame.

You also appear to be incapable of waiting for responses to criticisms before forming an opinion. Just like with The Times article yesterday. 

You're completely irrational.

Edit:

https://mobile.twitter.com/BenGoldsmith/status/1251479230476619777

This nurse has even deleted her account now. She mislead people, it did the rounds on social media. Gaining massive attention. You might think she's deleted because of abuse. She's almost certainly been advised by HR to delete her account and she'll be investigated. 

[i-Ram]

1 hour ago, Bob The Badger said:

It's barely credible that the President of the United States tweeted this.

 

Amazing, but there again he was reiterating again last night that everyone at the top of the FBI was human scum. The man is unhinged.

[Highgate]

41 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Amazing, but there again he was reiterating again last night that everyone at the top of the FBI was human scum. The man is unhinged.

The coronavirus and the daily briefings are laying bare the ridiculous nature of Trump and his presidency.  Of course anybody who had being paying attention would have known that only too well already.  But he is really driving home the point now.

The things he is saying in the briefings are definitely starting to damage his hopes of re-election.  The best thing Biden can do is stay quiet and let Trump destroy himself.