The Politics Thread 2020

[i-Ram]

10 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

If our lack of manufacturing strength is indeed a reason for us not been able to do more testing, then this surely has to be sorted out in planning for a crisis such as this.  Classic Tories now blaming foreigners for our own failings. If a virus breaks out in the uk, we wouldn't have the ability to test what was going on either.

We are basically letting loads and loads of our vital NHS staff get ill as they have no way of knowing if each other has it. Seems like every footballer, politician and celebrity has been tested but NHS staff are way down the list. It's bad enough that nurses are paid a joke wage in the first place. Now we are just putting them in danger because of a) lack of planning and b) our slow response. We gave them all a clap though, can't they be happy with that?

Please can you provide any examples of Tories blaming ‘Foreigners’ for us not currently having enough testing kits?  Or is that just classic Labour blame smearing?

 

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, alexxxxx said:

ED is posh! I live relatively nearby there. 

Rent is absolutely insane for most of inner London. 

That is my point, it was a fairly normal place back in early 2000s and definitely what you would call posh. Had one pub you could say was posh/hippsterish. And the rents were more than affordable to kids on average London graduate salaries. As I said, I could afford to go out 3-4 times a week too and go on holidays.

The 30k starting grads I mentioned now would never be able to live somewhere nice like that and only 15mins from London Bridge. And they can't afford to go out really either.

[ariotofmyown]

2 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Please can you provide any examples of Tories blaming ‘Foreigners’ for us not currently having enough testing kits?  Or is that just classic Labour blame smearing?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/mar/29/michael-gove-appears-to-blame-china-over-lack-of-uk-coronavirus-testing

Asked on BBC One’s Andrew Marr show why Britain did not have sufficient testing, despite the first case in Chinabeing known about in December, Gove said: “We’ve been increasing the number of tests over the course of the last month.

“It was the case … [that] the first case of coronavirus in China was established in December of last year, but it was also the case that some of the reporting from China was not clear about the scale, the nature, the infectiousness of this.”

[Comrade 86]

11 hours ago, Norman said:

The government have done a good job in my opinion. The staged lockdown helped all the vital services. It stopped crime, riots etc. 

Logistically, they are keeping the country going until a full lockdown is imposed. 

Yeah, they've messed up on a few decisions. Which country hasn't? They are dealing with a crisis that has no blueprint. 

The economy is hanging on, the country is still running, crime is low, prisons are under control, extra hospitals being temporarily built, people given job and money security. Self-employed were left worrying an extra week, but there must have been some tough decisions taken there. You can't just implement systems overnight. 

It's the public that have let the government down. Yes, questions.over the long term economy and many other complex matters need to be addressed in the coming months, but what more are people expecting of those taking very difficult decisions? 

It's not Boris deciding on everything. It's hundreds and thousands of advisors. One of whicg I built a house for and has been on the breakfast shows. 

I trust him to take decisions on my behalf. He knows his stuff on tropical diseases. He's advising the government at a high level.

The peak is weeks away for us yet, but hopefully now all the major decisions have been implemented, the government will get everything in place logistically and economically and then shut the country down. 

On a side note, we went without PPE and any lock down measures including personal space until this week. You'll be hard pushed to find anyone criticising the response of the government to our fears and needs within the Prison Service, though. 

 

Hark at you. A few days back you're bitching because you've not been given sufficient time to implement lockdown. Now all of a sudden when your precious Boris is criticised by someone who does not share your political leanings, you're singing an entirely different tune. What a surprise! As per, can't take you remotely seriously, I'm afraid. 

Notwithstanding the paucity of credible content in your latest response to me, I do, however, bow to your superior command of the English language. Doubtless many on here feel as overawed by your grasp of cunning linguistics as I do. 

[alexxxxx]

3 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

That is my point, it was a fairly normal place back in early 2000s and definitely what you would call posh. Had one pub you could say was posh/hippsterish. And the rents were more than affordable to kids on average London graduate salaries. As I said, I could afford to go out 3-4 times a week too and go on holidays.

The 30k starting grads I mentioned now would never be able to live somewhere nice like that and only 15mins from London Bridge. And they can't afford to go out really either.

Housing policy and the way the housing market is structured the root cause of so many issues in our society. 

I love this city though despite the insanity of housing. 

[ariotofmyown]

6 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Please can you provide any examples of Tories blaming ‘Foreigners’ for us not currently having enough testing kits?  Or is that just classic Labour blame smearing?

 

From Lib Dem leader on Gove's attempt to blame China. Definitely a time for making enemies. Gove yet again showing himself to be despicable scum...

"The evidence this was a serious virus was well documented through January into February. We need to understand precisely how ministers were responding, rather than feeble excuses that they didn’t know.

Going forward, every effort must be made, nationally and internationally, to ensure that we are in the best possible position to provide medical care as the number of cases grows."

[i-Ram]

2 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/mar/29/michael-gove-appears-to-blame-china-over-lack-of-uk-coronavirus-testing

Mmmmh.  Not much there about manufacturing/product shortfall in the UK, and Tories blaming Foriegners for not being able to address the issue (which was the point you were making). Loads about China’s reporting of the virus being unclear about the “scale, nature and infectiousness” of the disease. I suspect all Western Government’s are thinking very much the same in that regard.

[maxjam]

10 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/mar/29/michael-gove-appears-to-blame-china-over-lack-of-uk-coronavirus-testing

Asked on BBC One’s Andrew Marr show why Britain did not have sufficient testing, despite the first case in Chinabeing known about in December, Gove said: “We’ve been increasing the number of tests over the course of the last month.

“It was the case … [that] the first case of coronavirus in China was established in December of last year, but it was also the case that some of the reporting from China was not clear about the scale, the nature, the infectiousness of this.”

I suppose it makes a better headline than 'Michael Gove talks facts about China' and will appeal to the Guardian's readership better.  Gotta get those lovely clicks.

Meanwhile, also found in the Guardian a week or so earlier...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/20/chinese-inquiry-exonerates-coronavirus-whistleblower-doctor-li-wenliang

[ariotofmyown]

Just checked by call history and on 9th March, my brother told me that he had just heard a guy in radio arrive back on plane from Northern Italy and without any testing, was allowed to get on a train into central London.

What was the government's strategy at this point. Given up on trying to prevent the spread in the uk as we were all going to get it? Still supposedly trying to stop the virus spreading around the UK?

And this was after places like South Korea, Hong Kong and Taiwan had successfully managed to stop the spread of the virus through tonnes of testing. Did we not bother following their lead as we secretly knew we were hugely underprepared for testing?

Once/if we get through this, an official inquiry is going expose so much failure. We still have the report into Russian interference to come at some point, strangely delayed before the election.

[Norman]

11 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Hark at you. A few days back you're bitching because you've not been given sufficient time to implement lockdown. Now all of a sudden when your precious Boris is criticised by someone who does not share your political leanings, you're singing an entirely different tune. What a surprise! As per, can't take you remotely seriously, I'm afraid. 

Notwithstanding the paucity of credible content in your latest response to me, I do, however, bow to your superior command of the English language. Doubtless many on here feel as overawed by your grasp of cunning linguistics as I do. 

Erm, I was bitching at the public for not letting a staged lockdown happen. We needed more time. But having bearbeques, parties and buying a years supply of sunflower oil was more important. 

The rest of it is just whataboutery. 

It is a pet hate of mine, though. Those that type in a way that they would never speak. Especially on an informal platform. 

[G STAR RAM]

21 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Italy were doing us a favour in been ahead of the curve. We sat back and watched, making sure everyone could have a big blow out before going into partial lockdown. This was when 100s were dying each day in Italy.

Besides, we are Britain (aka England). We are just better than Johnny Foreigner and so should be able to deal with a crisis far better than those other places. Stiff upper lip and all that.

Disaster and emergency planning should be core to what a government does. I'm sure Italy and Spain have the same problems with their leaders as us. Average people with little real experience of planning and making the right decisions when the pressure is on. Being a CEO of a large business would be good experience. Being in charge of a large Hospital would be good experience. Being in charge of a Trade Union would be good experience.

Being a journalist who was fired from the Telegraph for making up stories is not good experience.

Italy and Spain had China doing them a favour behind ahead of the curve.

Maybe with this virus being new and not knowing much about it, planning has been hard. 

Is a couple of weeks long enough to prepare for a crisis of this size? I dont know.

I'm not sure that being fired from The Telegraph has any bearing on handling a national crisis like this. I'd imagine advice is coming from an array of experts. I could be wrong though. Probably just easier to assume that BJ is handling this all on his own and use it as a stick to beat him with.

[i-Ram]

2 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Just checked by call history and on 9th March, my brother told me that he had just heard a guy in radio arrive back on plane from Northern Italy and without any testing, was allowed to get on a train into central London.

What was the government's strategy at this point. Given up on trying to prevent the spread in the uk as we were all going to get it? Still supposedly trying to stop the virus spreading around the UK?

And this was after places like South Korea, Hong Kong and Taiwan had successfully managed to stop the spread of the virus through tonnes of testing. Did we not bother following their lead as we secretly knew we were hugely underprepared for testing?

Once/if we get through this, an official inquiry is going expose so much failure. We still have the report into Russian interference to come at some point, strangely delayed before the election.

My Sister told me that a man down the tip read it on Facebook that there has been no Russian interference in our Political system. Just relax.

[Norman]

30 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Need you really ask. I get accused of political bias because I'm not happy with the government's handling of the crisis but of course all those remaining tight lipped over issues like testing and PPE for the NHS are utterly impartial. What a joke.

As for all the baalocks written about 'advisers' does the government really need specialist consultation to surmise that in a pandemic, PPE might be required, or that testing processes might need to be ramped up? 

Like I said, a British company with RPE heading over here from China had their 2 warehouses commandeered. That probably didn't help. 

[Norman]

3 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Italy and Spain had China doing them a favour behind ahead of the curve.

Maybe with this virus being new and not knowing much about it, planning has been hard. 

Is a couple of weeks long enough to prepare for a crisis of this size? I dont know.

I'm not sure that being fired from The Telegraph has any bearing on handling a national crisis like this. I'd imagine advice is coming from an array of experts. I could be wrong though. Probably just easier to assume that BJ is handling this all on his own and use it as a stick to beat him with.

Northern Italy has a big Chinese population.

That probably doesn't help. And the fact the Chinese Communist Party have blatantly lied. 

[ramesses]

Looking at some freely available Cabinet Office documents published way back in 2007 and 2008, it’s clear that all UK governments have known that a pandemic like this one was predicted, that it was inevitable, and there was going to be very serious health, economic and social consequences. 

It’s also clear from these documents that UK governments have known for a very long time what the scale of the crisis was likely to be and what kind of planning, preparation, and stock piling was required. Recent interviews with former UK government ministers confirm that, given its inevitability, there was a blueprint/plan drawn up to deal with a pandemic.

It’s now 2020. The pandemic is here and we have shortages of basic testing equipment and PPE. It’s pretty obvious that at least some aspects of UK government planning over the past decade for this inevitable crisis have proved inadequate.

It’s also clear that some other governments (like South Korea) are dealing with the crisis better than us. As far as I can tell, that’s due to the swift adoption of a clear, science based, plan of action aided by hard lessons learned from their experience with SARS. However those lessons from the SARS outbreak were not a secret, they were in fact well known, and there are obviously questions to be asked about why the present UK government chose a different, slower, tack.

At some point there’ll be a UK inquiry and it will be asking very legitimate questions about the nature and adequacy of UK government planning over the past decade to deal with a crisis that everyone knew was coming.

[i-Ram]

2 minutes ago, ramesses said:

Looking at some freely available Cabinet Office documents published way back in 2007 and 2008, it’s clear that all UK governments have known that a pandemic like this one was predicted, that it was inevitable, and there was going to be very serious health, economic and social consequences. 

It’s also clear from these documents that UK governments have known for a very long time what the scale of the crisis was likely to be and what kind of planning, preparation, and stock piling was required. Recent interviews with former UK government ministers confirm that, given its inevitability, there was a blueprint/plan drawn up to deal with a pandemic.

It’s now 2020. The pandemic is here and we have shortages of basic testing equipment and PPE. It’s pretty obvious that at least some aspects of UK government planning over the past decade for this inevitable crisis have proved inadequate.

It’s also clear that some other governments (like South Korea) are dealing with the crisis better than us. As far as I can tell, that’s due to the swift adoption of a clear, science based, plan of action aided by hard lessons learned from their experience with SARS. However those lessons from the SARS outbreak were not a secret, they were in fact well known, and there are obviously questions to be asked about why the present UK government chose a different, slower, tack.

At some point there’ll be a UK inquiry and it will be asking very legitimate questions about the nature and adequacy of UK government planning over the past decade to deal with a crisis that everyone knew was coming.

Good post. I can see why you must choose not to wander into this thread too often.

[ariotofmyown]

9 minutes ago, ramesses said:

Looking at some freely available Cabinet Office documents published way back in 2007 and 2008, it’s clear that all UK governments have known that a pandemic like this one was predicted, that it was inevitable, and there was going to be very serious health, economic and social consequences. 

It’s also clear from these documents that UK governments have known for a very long time what the scale of the crisis was likely to be and what kind of planning, preparation, and stock piling was required. Recent interviews with former UK government ministers confirm that, given its inevitability, there was a blueprint/plan drawn up to deal with a pandemic.

It’s now 2020. The pandemic is here and we have shortages of basic testing equipment and PPE. It’s pretty obvious that at least some aspects of UK government planning over the past decade for this inevitable crisis have proved inadequate.

It’s also clear that some other governments (like South Korea) are dealing with the crisis better than us. As far as I can tell, that’s due to the swift adoption of a clear, science based, plan of action aided by hard lessons learned from their experience with SARS. However those lessons from the SARS outbreak were not a secret, they were in fact well known, and there are obviously questions to be asked about why the present UK government chose a different, slower, tack.

At some point there’ll be a UK inquiry and it will be asking very legitimate questions about the nature and adequacy of UK government planning over the past decade to deal with a crisis that everyone knew was coming.

Can you replace Michael Gove please? And now?

[Norman]

I've just read that Dianne Abbott ordered the PPE. Which explains the numbers. 

A source close to Abbott said 'if the shoe was on the other foot, we'd have had more PPE' 

[ariotofmyown]

40 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Mmmmh.  Not much there about manufacturing/product shortfall in the UK, and Tories blaming Foriegners for not being able to address the issue (which was the point you were making). Loads about China’s reporting of the virus being unclear about the “scale, nature and infectiousness” of the disease. I suspect all Western Government’s are thinking very much the same in that regard.

I don't think that is entirely fair. I said the Tories were blaming foreigners for our own failings on testing, and when asked that question, Gove responded that China weren't open with us quick enough. That may well be the case, but as @ramesses excellent post points out, this sort of planning should be happening well in advance of the last 2-3 months. Gove is scum, and been a journalist linked with several vile newspapers, knows the headlines will be all about China screwing us over and not our own failings.

People aren't stupid though and Gove doesn't seem like a very popular politician with anyone. Hopefully this ridiculous answer will accelerate the end of his political 'career' and he can go back to getting advances from Murdoch for books he doesn't write.

[maxjam]

20 minutes ago, ramesses said:

Looking at some freely available Cabinet Office documents published way back in 2007 and 2008, it’s clear that all UK governments have known that a pandemic like this one was predicted, that it was inevitable, and there was going to be very serious health, economic and social consequences. 

[snip]

At some point there’ll be a UK inquiry and it will be asking very legitimate questions about the nature and adequacy of UK government planning over the past decade to deal with a crisis that everyone knew was coming.

Agree now is not the time for arguing, lets tackle the problem now and learn from it at a later date.

We've all known something like this was an inevitability but I guess in a similar way to individually thinking we're all gonna live forever nothing was done cos it was a problem for some future generation.  Here's hoping NASA are taking note and are coming up with plans to deflect the inevitable asteroid with our name on it...