The Politics Thread 2020

[1of4]

A few days ago our Prime Minister had an offer from the EU, to join them in obtaining much needed ventilators. Meaning we would get this much needed equipment sooner and cheaper than ordering them ourselves. Johnson turned this offer down. This was sheer incompetence or pure bloody mindedness on his part.

[Andicis]

38 minutes ago, EtoileSportiveDeDerby said:

it's not just an accounting trick...

It's heavily misleading to use the German numbers against ours, see @maxjam's post about it. It means our figures would always be much higher than theirs.

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, 1of4 said:

A few days ago our Prime Minister had an offer from the EU, to join them in obtaining much needed ventilators. Meaning we would get this much needed equipment sooner and cheaper than ordering them ourselves. Johnson turned this offer down. This was sheer incompetence or pure bloody mindedness on his part.

Regardless of your political allegiance, if the report is to be believed (it's on the BBC site so, probably about as trustworthy as you can get and they've not denied the blunder - they are now claiming a communication problem !!!) you'd have to agree this a pretty stupid thing they allowed to happen. Indefensible. 

[maxjam]

If BJ had avoided the virus would she have criticised him for hiding away?  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Beth Rigby is a Political Editor at Sky News.

[GboroRam]

14 minutes ago, maxjam said:

If BJ had avoided the virus would she have criticised him for hiding away?  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Beth Rigby is a Political Editor at Sky News.

Honestly, I think catching the virus will become the norm, so there should be no surprise that people in public positions are getting it.  Have we done enough as a country to safeguard everyone? I think a combination of trusting people to do the right thing rather than enforcement, coupled with startling levels of stupidity amongst the public in general, we could have done better. Should key cabinet members have avoided contact with each other to stem it spreading around our key government officials? Easy to suggest in hindsight, but this virus is so virulent it probably wouldn't have made much difference.

I hope Boris has a swift recovery, so I can go back to disliking him intensely.

[Wolfie]

28 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Honestly, I think catching the virus will become the norm, so there should be no surprise that people in public positions are getting it.  Have we done enough as a country to safeguard everyone? I think a combination of trusting people to do the right thing rather than enforcement, coupled with startling levels of stupidity amongst the public in general, we could have done better. Should key cabinet members have avoided contact with each other to stem it spreading around our key government officials? Easy to suggest in hindsight, but this virus is so virulent it probably wouldn't have made much difference.

I hope Boris has a swift recovery, so I can go back to disliking him intensely.

Maybe. I don't know. The thinking was that if we went straight to a very strict lockdown, not knowing how long it was going to have to last (which we still don't know), then there could be a backlash and people not observing it just when we needed them to. Not making a judgement either way.

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

3 hours ago, Angry Ram said:

Yeah cause it was. Lend me your crystal ball, I want to know when the next virus will hit. 

Correct me if i am  wrong, was it you who recommended Pandemic on Netflix ?

i very much enjoyed it (thx for that) and it does cover at length that every year potentially there is a risk. Most years it seems we are lucky and some we are not. Health policies, provision of care, equipment and all the planning required should not be left to mystic Meg

PS:I got the 6 numbers for the lottery tomorrow if you are interested

[King Kevin]

9 minutes ago, EtoileSportiveDeDerby said:

Correct me if i am  wrong, was it you who recommended Pandemic on Netflix ?

i very much enjoyed it (thx for that) and it does cover at length that every year potentially there is a risk. Most years it seems we are lucky and some we are not. Health policies, provision of care, equipment and all the planning required should not be left to mystic Meg

PS:I got the 6 numbers for the lottery tomorrow if you are interested

Twas me ,another good watch is Coventry Blitz it was on the Sony Movie Channel today ,obviously about the bombing of Coventry but the detail they went into to stop germs and virus's spreading is very similar today.

[Angry Ram]

12 minutes ago, EtoileSportiveDeDerby said:

Correct me if i am  wrong, was it you who recommended Pandemic on Netflix ?

i very much enjoyed it (thx for that) and it does cover at length that every year potentially there is a risk. Most years it seems we are lucky and some we are not. Health policies, provision of care, equipment and all the planning required should not be left to mystic Meg

PS:I got the 6 numbers for the lottery tomorrow if you are interested

Yes, I did recommend Pandemic. I could recommend a few others that might cover nuclear holocaust.. Do you expect the government to provide you with a shelter, just in case?

Just how far do you expect any government to provide for uncommon occurrences? 
And yes, please PM me those lottery numbers. 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

4 minutes ago, King Kevin said:

Twas me ,another good watch is Coventry Blitz it was on the Sony Movie Channel today ,obviously about the bombing of Coventry but the detail they went into to stop germs and virus's spreading is very similar today.

Will look out for that. My grandma spent three years in Coventry during the war as my great granddad moved there with work in 1938.   She had some real horror stories, not divulged to me as she passed away when I was nine.  Since been told them by my Aunt.

[jono]

5 hours ago, GboroRam said:

Well, increasing taxation was talked about, but that's a dirty word at the minute. Better to be ill-prepared to handle a health crisis, but keep those dividends paying well.

I don’t think that’s a very good counter argument. And don’t forget .. those dividends pay people’s pensions .. they don’t all disappear in to some Bahamian coffer. Something the left never recognises .. the major shareholder who get the dividends are investment funds that pay out to millions of work place pensions. That’s a big duhhh mate 

[jono]

2 hours ago, Van Wolfie said:

Maybe. I don't know. The thinking was that if we went straight to a very strict lockdown, not knowing how long it was going to have to last (which we still don't know), then there could be a backlash and people not observing it just when we needed them to. Not making a judgement either way.

And that is the issue .. all us keyboard scientists and practitioners know what’s right ( me included I hasten to add ) but it’s one thing knowing what should be done .. quite another getting us all to get with the programme.. hellish difficult whoever is in charge 

which narks me even more when journo’s are asking questions that at first glance are incisive but the subtext is so much can I “get em” 

[GboroRam]

59 minutes ago, jono said:

I don’t think that’s a very good counter argument. And don’t forget .. those dividends pay people’s pensions .. they don’t all disappear in to some Bahamian coffer. Something the left never recognises .. the major shareholder who get the dividends are investment funds that pay out to millions of work place pensions. That’s a big duhhh mate 

I'm sure the ultra well-off take more than they need, and enough to fund a social fabric that doesn't crash to barbarism in a crisis. 

But the funny thing is, I agree that the notion of "caring capitalism" can't work.

We need a new way, that isn't reliant on ever expanding markets and wealth concentrating into a tiny minority's hands. 

Someone said globalism is dead because its too reliant on just-in-time supply lines and is vulnerable to pandemics breaking everything down. But the reality is, capitalism doesn't care if there's a fallback or not. Resilience comes at a cost, and profits are the only driving force. We won't change without a fundamental rethink. 

We need to stop chasing profits above all else. I don't think this infection will be enough to bring it about though. 

[1of4]

This guy should be America's next President.

[Van der MoodHoover]

1 hour ago, jono said:

I don’t think that’s a very good counter argument. And don’t forget .. those dividends pay people’s pensions .. they don’t all disappear in to some Bahamian coffer. Something the left never recognises .. the major shareholder who get the dividends are investment funds that pay out to millions of work place pensions. That’s a big duhhh mate 

Take this from someone who has worked in the pensions and insurance industry for 30 years mate.

British industry and government has engaged in the biggest transfer of risk to individuals in history. 

The fact that you are now grateful for a few crumbs, being a small part of the "risk premium " that's been saved by them and shoved onto you shows how successful this has been. Remarkable that its been achieved without massive social unrest.

The point @GboroRam makes is worthwhile. The state can mobilise resources on a scale individuals, businesses, local councils cannot. Diverting more resources to it through taxation should provide society with a better safety net than a few more pounds in each of our woefully inadequate individual pension accounts that will be worth,  quite literally,  a tin of beans.

[jono]

1 hour ago, GboroRam said:

I'm sure the ultra well-off take more than they need, and enough to fund a social fabric that doesn't crash to barbarism in a crisis. 

But the funny thing is, I agree that the notion of "caring capitalism" can't work.

We need a new way, that isn't reliant on ever expanding markets and wealth concentrating into a tiny minority's hands. 

Someone said globalism is dead because its too reliant on just-in-time supply lines and is vulnerable to pandemics breaking everything down. But the reality is, capitalism doesn't care if there's a fallback or not. Resilience comes at a cost, and profits are the only driving force. We won't change without a fundamental rethink. 

We need to stop chasing profits above all else. I don't think this infection will be enough to bring it about though. 

Avoidance. Pure and simple. No answer, start another topic. 

[GboroRam]

26 minutes ago, jono said:

Avoidance. Pure and simple. No answer, start another topic. 

No idea what you mean. 

[Archied]

13 hours ago, EtoileSportiveDeDerby said:

and I agree!

However good management/government should be improvement in efficiencies as well as investments, not instead of.

It is a well known fact for instance that the NHS is pound for pound one of the most efficient and effective healthcare service in the world. Other countries send their senior management teams to see how they achieve so much with a vastly inferior budget. But there is only so much you can do because other factors such as ageing population, costly drugs, obesity, PPI effectively  means that maintaining level of investment actually mean going backward. 

For the TV license, just watch foreign TV for a week and you might change your mind. Believe me when I say no other country comes anywhere near what is on the box here. ?

Road  fund license, it's not being used to fix enough potholes that's for sure

Council tax, don't get me started on Derby City Council!

 

 

 

You are spot on , I’ve watched it ,, can’t understand a bloody word of it

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

4 minutes ago, Archied said:

You are spot on , I’ve watched it ,, can’t understand a bloody word of it

Good! If you understand it that is even worse!

[jono]

1 hour ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Take this from someone who has worked in the pensions and insurance industry for 30 years mate.

British industry and government has engaged in the biggest transfer of risk to individuals in history. 

The fact that you are now grateful for a few crumbs, being a small part of the "risk premium " that's been saved by them and shoved onto you shows how successful this has been. Remarkable that its been achieved without massive social unrest.

The point @GboroRam makes is worthwhile. The state can mobilise resources on a scale individuals, businesses, local councils cannot. Diverting more resources to it through taxation should provide society with a better safety net than a few more pounds in each of our woefully inadequate individual pension accounts that will be worth,  quite literally,  a tin of beans.

The great thing about this forum is that we all get to debate and put forward a point of view. I just can’t agree with many on this political thread. Not because of any one particular point - and there are good ones, that standing alone, could shift my opinion a few degrees - it is the the stitching together of several points to arrive at a conclusion that just doesn’t  add up when history and the examples it has given are taken in to account. Add in the diabolical maths along with logic that isn’t quite right, that owes more to ideology than it should and I am left shrugging my shoulders. so I guess, we will, as the cliche goes .. have to agree to disagree ??