Greta Thunberg & Extinction Rebellion

[Comrade 86]

So apparently some folk are so incapable of critical thinking that they'd continue harming the environment (quite aware that they may be risking their own children's' futures in the process) just to spite a guy who entertains himself by dressing up as a stick of broccoli?

Guess we're all ducked then!

 ?‍♀️

 

[Eddie]

26 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

So apparently some folk are so incapable of critical thinking that they'd continue harming the environment (quite aware that they may be risking their own children's' futures in the process) just to spite a guy who entertains himself by dressing up as a stick of broccoli?

Guess we're all ducked then!

 ?‍♀️

 

I'm only surprised that the resident right-wingers haven't blamed everything on the EU.

[Comrade 86]

8 minutes ago, Montgolfier said:

I'm only surprised that the resident right-wingers haven't blamed everything on the EU.

[maxjam]

31 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

So apparently some folk are so incapable of critical thinking that they'd continue harming the environment (quite aware that they may be risking their own children's' futures in the process) just to spite a guy who entertains himself by dressing up as a stick of broccoli?

Guess we're all ducked then!

 ?‍♀️

 

Thats a one way of looking at it. 

Another way would be to consider how you engage a person that has no interest in or doesn't care about climate change to give it some thought.

My argument is that doing some weird street dance or dressing up as a vegetable isn't going to win them over, its only going to reaffirm their existing beliefs that its all just hysteria and not their problem.  

I'm convinced!!!

[Comrade 86]

30 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Thats a one way of looking at it. 

Another way would be to consider how you engage a person that has no interest in or doesn't care about climate change to give it some thought.

My argument is that doing some weird street dance or dressing up as a vegetable isn't going to win them over, its only going to reaffirm their existing beliefs that its all just hysteria and not their problem.  

I'm convinced!!!

I know you are Max and FWIW, I'm not addressing you as an individual just the mindset of the folk you describe as reacting this way. For the final time, the point I've been trying to make is, I sense, not wildly dissimilar to yours only we're coming at it from different sides. My very first post talked about folk having 'hopelessly entrenched alignments'. It also talked about the need for ALL OF US to get past lame biases too though, as if we don't, we are basically screwed, or our kids are at least.

We've seen exactly the same behaviours ref: Brexit and as I recall you pointing out a couple of times, far from unifying folk, the ability to use online 'platforms' seems to have had the adverse effect. The same is true of media bias and I think broccoli guy is a good example of this for the very reasons you've alluded to. It's a serious issue, especially when it inhibits debate of stuff like climate control and at this point, it's hard to see how this will change.

[TigerTedd]

2 hours ago, maxjam said:

I haven't looked at Green party policies in a long time but doubt they are suitable for running a country, a bit like AOC's Green New Deal.  With a proper PR government I'd hope that the Greens would get a sizeable vote, enough to influence to affect future policies. 

This is what I thought about brexit. Never thought for a second that it would win. Just that it would have enough support that the government would sit up and notice a large minority that are unhappy with the status quo and maybe they’d work towards a slightly less euro centric policy. I was actually shocked and terrified when it won. 

but that’s a different debate.

Each day I’m actually becoming more and more concerned by global warming. It’s the biggest issue facing us quite possibly ever. Whether it’s man made or not, I don’t really care. If the world was always destined to get hotter, then we have the ability now to stop it and keep living on it. 

Right now there’s a big debate about racism (not to mention a huge amount of time and resource being wasted on brexit). As abhorrent as racism is, it’s an issue we can deal with tomorrow, but we need to make sure there is a tomorrow. 

I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say that we’re getting to a point where if you’re not investing time or money in combatting climate change, then you’re just wasting resources. Absolutely everything else is secondary. 

So I kind of get the protesters. Why are you going on holiday, why are you going to work, why are you doing anything that is not somehow combatting climate change? Get your heads out the sand, and wake up. 

i guess that’s the message they’re trying to get through, that’s the message I’m getting anyway. 

But I’ll get down off my soapbox now, cos I’m not actually sure what to do about it. Got solar panels on my house, thinking about getting an electric car, recycle what I can, but everything I hear is that an individual’s efforts are basically pointless. Changes need to happen on a worldwide governmental scale, and they’re just not. What’s the point in me recycling me weetabix box when the Chinese are pumping out so much smog?

im genuinely concerned about the poo we’re leaving my kids to deal with. Maybe the fact that I’ve got kids to be concerned about makes me the problem. And I’m starting to get properly pissed off by the debate and people in charge doing absolutely duck all. 

I’d actually be quite happy at this point for the country to be taken over by some dictator that just says ‘right, enough debate, this is what needs to be done to fix everything, no debate, no referendums, no listening to stupid inaccurate opinions just to uphold the idea of free speech, let’s just get the job done!’

phew. Rant over. 

PS had to quote someone, ended up being you, even though about 90% of that probably has nothing to do with your post. Just needed to get that off my chest. 

[SillyBilly]

Pretty much zero interest in what Greta has to say or any other adult induced terror-stricken child for that matter.

When elephants in the room are completely ignored it endorses my view that the West washing out yoghurt pots is p*ssing in the proverbial.

There are arguments to be won here and there is a trodden path already of where triumphs have been made; the Montreal Protocol in the late 80s springs to mind, but ultimately children need protecting from their impending ruination by sensible adults...so they can be left to have childhoods. We terrified kids then too and I am not convinced good can be had from it, particularly when you simply cannot comprehend the complexities of life on planet earth at such ages. Refer back to elephant in the room remark...

[maxjam]

53 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

I know you are Max and FWIW, I'm not addressing you as an individual just the mindset of the folk you describe as reacting this way. For the final time, the point I've been trying to make is, I sense, not wildly dissimilar to yours only we're coming at it from different sides. My very first post talked about folk having 'hopelessly entrenched alignments'. It also talked about the need for ALL OF US to get past lame biases too though, as if we don't, we are basically screwed, or our kids are at least.

We've seen exactly the same behaviours ref: Brexit and as I recall you pointing out a couple of times, far from unifying folk, the ability to use online 'platforms' seems to have had the adverse effect. The same is true of media bias and I think broccoli guy is a good example of this for the very reasons you've alluded to. It's a serious issue, especially when it inhibits debate of stuff like climate control and at this point, it's hard to see how this will change.

I'd agree with a lot of that, I've never really been one for delving to deeply into politics tbh but the free speech, fake news, media bias angle concerns me greatly.

There are a lot of subjects that with the help of the media, both mainstream and social, we are becoming increasingly divided on - even when we are almost on the same page the 'all or nothing' attitude of the twitterati etc and deplatform culture moves in and makes things worse.  Its not going to end well, in fact several US commentators have suggested a 'cultural civil war' is approaching which I can well believe, no one talks anymore. 

Broccoli man is the perfect example of this.  He has been paraded on tv by the media to set the movement back, they could interview anyone but chose him - whats their angle?  Are they fed up with being hassled on the way to work or are they happy with and don't want to change their luxurious jet setting lives?   Whatever, Broccoli man has played into their hands.

I've been called out in the past for mainly criticising the left both here and in the US, but my thinking is how do you expect the Tories or Trump to behave?  They are doing exactly what they said they would do.   I criticise the left because they allowed Trump/Brexit to happen and only they can fix it - if they adopt a more sensible, moderate approach.  You don't beat them with outrage culture or lurching further to the left, you find what the majority of people respond to and focus on that.   

With broccoli man, most people will see him as a lunatic and by default the extinction rebellion just another hysterical overreaction.   You don't convince people that care little for climate change by creating a scene or acting like an idiot.  I don't know what you do tbh, but the actions of a lot of those involved with the extinction rebellion have imo set the movement back. 

[Andicis]

Climate change is a big issue. I just can't get behind the approach taken to it by Greta Thurnberg, or the extinction rebellion. Believe it or not, in the UK we are actually moving in the right direction when it comes to renewable energy sources. 

I think the hysteria for this is vastly overblown. I'm part of the younger generation (20), but the amount of hypocrisy I've heard from people my age is staggering. They'll happily preach about the dangers of climate change to look good for social media, but past that go back to doing things that readily damage the environment. 

The fact is, battling climate change won't happen overnight. We can't go back to living in caves. As time goes on, the technology is moving in that direction and we are actually making steps to improve, but the population is growing at a rate that could never be sustainable.

How can we ask developing countries to cut emissions when we readily burned coal and oil to get as developed as we are? Why should they listen? Why should Brazil not chop down the rainforest to build up their economy? 

[maxjam]

13 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

So I kind of get the protesters. Why are you going on holiday, why are you going to work, why are you doing anything that is not somehow combatting climate change? Get your heads out the sand, and wake up. 

I'll just pull this sentence out... 

I can see where they are coming from but don't agree with their methods, I think the image they portrait trivialises the issue.  

They could be worse though, they could be hypocrites (this really makes me sick);

https://news.sky.com/story/celebrities-call-themselves-hypocrites-as-they-back-extinction-rebellion-11836939

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7565333/Cumberbatch-dubbed-hypocrite-joining-XR-protesters-Trafalgar-Square-filmed-car-ads.html

https://pagesix.com/2019/07/30/a-listers-flock-to-google-summit-in-private-jets-mega-yachts-to-talk-climate-change/

[Comrade 86]

25 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I'd agree with a lot of that, I've never really been one for delving to deeply into politics tbh but the free speech, fake news, media bias angle concerns me greatly.

There are a lot of subjects that with the help of the media, both mainstream and social, we are becoming increasingly divided on - even when we are almost on the same page the 'all or nothing' attitude of the twitterati etc and deplatform culture moves in and makes things worse.  Its not going to end well, in fact several US commentators have suggested a 'cultural civil war' is approaching which I can well believe, no one talks anymore. 

Broccoli man is the perfect example of this.  He has been paraded on tv by the media to set the movement back, they could interview anyone but chose him - whats their angle?  Are they fed up with being hassled on the way to work or are they happy with and don't want to change their luxurious jet setting lives?   Whatever, Broccoli man has played into their hands.

I've been called out in the past for mainly criticising the left both here and in the US, but my thinking is how do you expect the Tories or Trump to behave?  They are doing exactly what they said they would do.   I criticise the left because they allowed Trump/Brexit to happen and only they can fix it - if they adopt a more sensible, moderate approach.  You don't beat them with outrage culture or lurching further to the left, you find what the majority of people respond to and focus on that.   

With broccoli man, most people will see him as a lunatic and by default the extinction rebellion just another hysterical overreaction.   You don't convince people that care little for climate change by creating a scene or acting like an idiot.  I don't know what you do tbh, but the actions of a lot of those involved with the extinction rebellion have imo set the movement back. 

Whilst it saddens me to admit as much, it's hard to disagree with much of that. What a bloody mess, huh!

[maxjam]

4 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Whilst it saddens me to admit as much, it's hard to disagree with much of that. What a bloody mess, huh!

We're in strange times, its true!

[Comrade 86]

51 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Climate change is a big issue. I just can't get behind the approach taken to it by Greta Thurnberg, or the extinction rebellion. Believe it or not, in the UK we are actually moving in the right direction when it comes to renewable energy sources. 

I think the hysteria for this is vastly overblown. I'm part of the younger generation (20), but the amount of hypocrisy I've heard from people my age is staggering. They'll happily preach about the dangers of climate change to look good for social media, but past that go back to doing things that readily damage the environment. 

The fact is, battling climate change won't happen overnight. We can't go back to living in caves. As time goes on, the technology is moving in that direction and we are actually making steps to improve, but the population is growing at a rate that could never be sustainable.

How can we ask developing countries to cut emissions when we readily burned coal and oil to get as developed as we are? Why should they listen? Why should Brazil not chop down the rainforest to build up their economy? 

Few points, firstly fracking, the removal of feed in tariffs for solar and a whole bunch of other stuff to do with the renewables industry in the UK would suggest we're not really moving in the prefered direction as much as it might seem. I won't bore you with the detail, but renewables is an industry I know well and it's an incredibly frustrating sector in which to work.

I think you've nailed the rest though mate. It does smack of hypocrisy for the West to pressure developing countries but those for whom this is a critical issue will counter that this is exactly the point in that we simply have to get past these barriers to reduced carbon emissions. One of the firms I've been involved with was set up to address the CO2 footprint of IT equipment in schools and deployed the first fully off-grid IT in the UK. Likewise in South Africa another firm that I co-founded is repurposing shipping containers as solar powered teacher / learner suites principally in the townships. I won't get rich doing either and the carbon offset is a drop in the ocean it unfortunately but it does assuage my conscience somewhat as at least I'm trying even if financially it's been a kick in the nads compared to earnings in my 'previous life'! The point is if we all do something rather than nothing, mo matter how modest in the grand scheme, perhaps we can stave off what currently seems inevitable.

The last point i'd make is that given the rigidity of thought of some of the elder generations, you lot and those to come will bear not only the brunt of what's to follow, but rather unfairly, the onus of finding a fix for it too. I wish you and your peers luck young man! As you know my lad is 2nd year at UCL and hearing him and his mates discuss climate change I'm satisfied that your generation has at least a better grasp of the job at hand than mine. Fingers are firmly crossed.

[TigerTedd]

1 hour ago, Andicis said:

How can we ask developing countries to cut emissions when we readily burned coal and oil to get as developed as we are? Why should they listen? Why should Brazil not chop down the rainforest to build up their economy? 

It’s not fair, but they should listen because they have to. We grew developed by polluting the planet. We didn’t know any better at the time. Now the planet is a bit ducked. We’ve bought it to the tipping point. It’s our fault (and the fault of other developed nations) but we can’t fix it on our own. 

if we just let Brazil et al do as much bad poo just to catch up for the purposes of parity, then we’re all ducked. 

it’s not fair, but it is what it is. 

whag con furs who’ve profited off pollution should be doing is putting some of the profit back into enabling developing countries to catch up without resorting to pollution. 
 

but again, that’s all shut that can be sorted out another day. Today we need to fix it, whatever that may take, no matter how fair or unfair that might be. As a global population we need to suck it up. 
 

I still don’t know what I can do about it personally. But like @86 Schmokes & a Pancake days, maybe if we all do a little bit, it can make a difference. 
 

Mind you, as much as I don’t like the idea of conspiracy theories and ‘the world is out to get me’, it does piss me off that there are so many campaigns to get us to not waste a drop of water, or not use that plastic straw, putting the blame on the individual, making you feel guilty as hell for forgetting to put your tissue in the recycle bin, to deflect from the fact that one big corporation pledging to cut its carbon footprint by 10% would probably do as much good as 1000 individuals could ever hope do (made up stats, but you get the gist), they just won’t do it cos it eats into profits. Grr, will they care about the profits when their grandkids are the generation that’s left to turns the lights off at the end of the world?

[TigerTedd]

1 hour ago, maxjam said:

I'll just pull this sentence out... 

I can see where they are coming from but don't agree with their methods, I think the image they portrait trivialises the issue.  

They could be worse though, they could be hypocrites (this really makes me sick);

https://news.sky.com/story/celebrities-call-themselves-hypocrites-as-they-back-extinction-rebellion-11836939

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7565333/Cumberbatch-dubbed-hypocrite-joining-XR-protesters-Trafalgar-Square-filmed-car-ads.html

https://pagesix.com/2019/07/30/a-listers-flock-to-google-summit-in-private-jets-mega-yachts-to-talk-climate-change/

I don’t like all this calling people out for being hypocrites stuff. 

We’re not going to go back to living in caves, and we’re not going to suddenly kill every first born to reduce population. We’re human beings and subject to human nature. We still like our creature comforts. You can be environmentally conscious and not be a bush dwelling vegan. You’re not a hypocrite if you decide to go on holiday abroad and don’t swim.

Like the Ozzie Fox News report about al gore flying to Australia. Please. Like the jet fumes from his flight are going to single handedly punch a while in the ozone. No, but him being physically at that conference might make all the difference to enact some significant change. The greater good. 

Or the claims that Tesla’s take up more carbon to build than they save. Even if that’s true, in the long term, with electricity being produced in greener ways, and production methods becoming more efficient, it’s only a matter of time before it becomes possible to bring the carbon emissions of production down. So again, it’s about the greater good. People being sceptical about it aren’t helping, they’re just slowing down a process that has to happen, whether they like it or not.

focus keeps being taken away from the point while people squabble over whether or not that was a plastic straw Greta was seen drinking with.

there are things we can still do without significantly changing our way of life. But if we don’t do those things now it will get to a point, maybe not in this generation, but not too far in the future, where all air travel will be banned, for example, because we’re just too close to the tipping point. 

[Rev]

Apparently Susannah Reid was just pleased to get her interview with Broccoli Man in the can with no swearing, seeing as he suffers so badly with florets.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

See people, recycling is easy when you try it!

[Andicis]

32 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

The point is if we all do something rather than nothing, mo matter how modest in the grand scheme, perhaps we can stave off what currently seems inevitable.

The last point i'd make is that given the rigidity of thought of some of the elder generations, you lot and those to come will bear not only the brunt of what's to follow, but rather unfairly, the onus of finding a fix for it too. I wish you and your peers luck young man! As you know my lad is 2nd year at UCL and hearing him and his mates discuss climate change I'm satisfied that your generation has at least a better grasp of the job at hand than mine. Fingers are firmly crossed.

Thanks for the post, it was very well thought out and well put. It's such a complex issue involved with climate change, and it being such a big topic at the minute can only be a good thing for the future. Everyone I've spoken to my age will acknowledge the dangers of climate change, and what it is doing, but at the minute the answer seems really difficult to a complex question.

I think one of the problems is, it feels almost useless as an individual to do anything. Because on the large scale, it means nothing. I always tell myself that it's not the right mindset to have and try to do my part but I also know that I like to do things that do damage the environment. I like to go abroad, I like to eat meat etc. 

It's a tough one. 

12 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

It’s not fair, but they should listen because they have to. We grew developed by polluting the planet. We didn’t know any better at the time. Now the planet is a bit ducked. We’ve bought it to the tipping point. It’s our fault (and the fault of other developed nations) but we can’t fix it on our own. 

I completely agree, but will it be possible to persuade them? There will be plenty of cynics in those places who would argue about the fairness of it all. I wouldn't really be able to disagree with them though, just because the Western world has a chequered past on pollution, so whilst we're now leading the charge to push for renewable energy and becoming carbon neutral, does that offset what we did? It feels incredibly difficult to unite 7 billion people. 

[maxjam]

27 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

I still don’t know what I can do about it personally. But like @86 Schmokes & a Pancake days, maybe if we all do a little bit, it can make a difference. 

 

17 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

I don’t like all this calling people out for being hypocrites stuff.  

Gonna be an awkward sod here (sorry) 

In one post you point out that we can all do our bit, in another you don't like calling out people as hypocrites.  The links I posted were of celebrities advertising high end cars but then sitting with people at the extinction rebellion virtue signalling, others attending a climate change conference in over 100 private jets and yet others calling themselves out as hypocrites for their huge carbon footprints.

They have the gall to criticise us for saving up all year to be crammed in a plane with 200 other people and tell us what we should do to change our lives, whilst they travel the world in their own private jets and luxury yachts.  

I do more than most to have as little impact on the planet as possible as do many 'ordinary' people.  I'm damn sure they can too, literally no one needs a private jet.  Everyone can do their bit, some a bit more than others.  To coin a phrase, if you talk the talk, walk the walk. 

[Highgate]

4 hours ago, maxjam said:

I haven't looked at Green party policies in a long time but doubt they are suitable for running a country, a bit like AOC's Green New Deal.  With a proper PR government I'd hope that the Greens would get a sizeable vote, enough to influence to affect future policies. 

Not sure they could do a lot worse than the more established parties in a lot of countries.

Yeah I've read that as well and it will help but imo there are simply far to many people on the planet already, let alone 50 years in the future.  At some point we are going to have to have a serious talk about how to sensibly reduce numbers - all the other problems go away if we control our own population.

In a lot of developed countries we already have negative population growth if you leave out migration.  If that was spread to the rest of the world we would obviously stop population growth altogether.  We can manage at 8 - 10 billion I think, if we change a lot of our core technologies, get all our electricity from renewables (or even carbon negative) and only drive electric vehicles. Change our agricultural habits, it may be even possible to grow our meat in labs in the near future and let a lot of the countryside return to woodland.  If humanity put a WWII style effort in, we could quickly get to nearly 0 carbon emissions in a lot of countries, but we would all have to work together.  At the moment that doesn't seem likely.

I'd agree with the first bit but still don't agree that the crazies are having any meaningful impact, they are more likely to persuade people to carry on ignoring it imo.  I don't know what it will take tbh, we can all see it coming but do nothing about it.  A major war over resources or mass starvation will focus peoples attention ?

Some huge storms and horrendous coastal flooding will probably concentrate minds in the next decade or two

 

[bcnram]

1 hour ago, Andicis said:

How can we ask developing countries to cut emissions when we readily burned coal and oil to get as developed as we are? Why should they listen? Why should Brazil not chop down the rainforest to build up their economy? 

Burning fossil fuels was part of  our development, we had no other means or knowledge regarding the damage it could do. That is not the case now, countries like Brazil, India and China have all the technology in the world available to them.