The Politics Thread 2019

[ronnieronalde]

3 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I applauded you for that alone.  Most people take whats spoon fed to them these days and never scratch beneath the surface.  To form a rounded opinion on anything you need to view things from multiple angles.

Anyway, re Tommy Robinson there was a video on youtube with him talking at the Oxford Union, its a few years old now start there to see where he's come from then try and find something more recent and reach your own conclusions - although tbh a lot of the more interesting stuff has been removed now so you just get the view mainstream media push.  

For example, there was a good interview with Jason Farrell (Sky News) who cut and edited the conversation and printed blatant lies on their website - key snippets from the interview are then linked to in BBC and ITV articles perpetuating the lie.  Fortunately TR secretly recorded the interview and uploaded it in its entirety.  You don't have to like what someone is saying, but to use a 'trusted' medium to blatantly lie should cause concern to everybody.

Finally, regarding free speech I just stumbled across this;

Watch from 20s to about the 6m mark.  Protecting free speech, promoting independent thought and limiting censorship are big deals to me, it seems by denying them its making us increasingly stupid as well!

Having watched hour after hour of Jordan Peterson (I mentioned him to you before) I understand and agree that to totally censor something is just as dangerous as not tackling issues head on. I respect him hugely, don't always agree and sometimes he makes me cringe. I do agree wholeheartedly that it's a dangerous place to be in if the left is the only side that is represented at universities or among the intellectual elite who are responsible for educating the next generation, it's dangerous and it will lead to a dumbing down and a narrowing of different views.

I'm all for protecting "free speech" as well but i genuinely don't believe EVERYONE is entitled to air those views under the banner of free speech, if that makes sense.

There are some things that shouldn't be allowed to be said. We know the difference between right and wrong. We know it.

I've said a few months that I used to force myself to talk to out and out racists in order to understand where they came from.  

The issue I have or had with that is I was able to listen to their views no matter how hateful or hurtful but then when I tried to take my turn they weren't having any of it and usually ended badly with threats of violence and swearing and even drinks getting thrown in people's faces.

I forced myself to go back and face the lads who bullied me as a kid to try to understand where they were coming from. Imagine my surprise and even disappointment when they didn't know themselves why they did what they did. They just blindly followed other people's lead.

That is probably the fundamental difference between our starting points- irrespective of where either of us sits on the political spectrum.

You believe all sides are open to discussing, to listening and to shifting. I think he expects people to listen and to shift but I don't think he/other extremists afford others the same right. I believe he is so entrenched in his hateful views that he is a real threat. I understand a lot of what is available to view or to read will likely only reinforce that, so the challenge is for me to find a non-biased source. I'm not sure that source will even exist.

I'll do some digging. I'll watch that video.

[ronnieronalde]

7 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

 

It'll take me a while to digest all of those points but I want to acknowledge that I appreciate you coming back with such a detailed response.

First glance there are points I agree with strongly and points I see as people like Tommy cause and certainly don't offer a solution to.

I made the connection between my dad and then my career to highlight the fact I come from the starting point that ANY form of racism or xenophobia doesn't sit well with me. I just don't see the need.

If I've totally misread him first of all I'll acknowledge that but secondly I'd be amazed. I'm honest enough as well to say it's going to take something really special to make me move on him.

Even if it is only mainstream "gush" that is available, they can't falsify the videos so much that he isn't spreading hate and division, that he doesn't have racist tendencies to put it mildly (I just watched the Tommy can score drugs anywhere video for example) he SAID those things, no-one else. He goes from Celtic v Rangers to Israel v Palestine to being racist to a guy he's asking to get him a taxi.

None of what I've seen has been made up. Fair enough if you and needless say there is stuff out there but you can't ignore his bad side, you just cant.

We'll keep chatting I'm sure and I'm sure at the end of it we'll be fine whether we agree or not.

[eddie]

More scaremongering - or a well thought-out article?

https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/05/23/this-prime-minister-was-destroyed-by-brexit-and-the-next-one?fbclid=IwAR1dcfKIRcvp_lf3opAnhtweDKMtdVrulit-J14PUp0YtKMSTb5dKn0LRwE

[maxjam]

22 minutes ago, eddie said:

More scaremongering - or a well thought-out article?

https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/05/23/this-prime-minister-was-destroyed-by-brexit-and-the-next-one?fbclid=IwAR1dcfKIRcvp_lf3opAnhtweDKMtdVrulit-J14PUp0YtKMSTb5dKn0LRwE

Not read the article yet, just the title but give or take a few votes the country is split 50-50 on Brexit - how can anyone possibly unite anything?  We rushed into it and now we're paying the price. 

IMHO this has exposed our political system for what it is, we need to take a few steps back think about a PR system so people get their voices heard and get a handle on wealth redistribution.  Whats going to happen though is the political parties will keep fighting over the 'iron throne' and put their careers, parties and continuation of the political system first and foremost.

I know people don't like Farage but if he puts PR into his 'I'm not calling it a manifesto, manifesto' he could really shake up the country for the good as none of the others want to.  He'll probably just want to seize power for himself though so we may as well all get our milkshakes ready now.

[GboroRam]

I was wondering if an answer, not that it would work with the number of people wanting a WTO brexit, would be to revoke article 50 and work to reform the mechanism to exit the EU. Allow for the negotiation period to be before article 50 is actioned. Allow the EU and the leaving country to come to a negotiated position that fits both sides, and a managed exit rather than a cliff edge exit. The backstop no longer is an issue because the terms of Brexit are agreed before we officially agree to leave. 

Will never be accepted by the hard brexit crew, unfortunately, but not enough MPs are in favour of a hard brexit, for what I believe are obvious reasons. 

[Stive Pesley]

3 hours ago, maxjam said:

I have in the past compared him loosely to the IRA, real malicious killers of innocents.  We didn't resolve that crisis by deplatforming them

FFS - not deplatformed??

Between 1988 and 1994 our Government *literally* banned the IRA from being broadcast on British TV and radio.

Whatever negotiations and discussions took place that led to the GFA - it was done behind closed doors between diplomats and politicians. I'd be quite happy if TR was banned from the media and he discussed his issues through to resolution in private with politicians. That's the only path to peace. Leave him to spout his crap all over the airwaves and he will achieve his goal of leading an uprising.

Maybe you picked a very bad example ?

3 hours ago, maxjam said:

I have personally spent a long time studying religions of the world and only one seems to have protected status.

Not sure how "long time" you spent but in the UK religion is a protected characteristic under the Equalities Act 2010, so clearly all religion has protected status from discrimination and  harassment. What a strange thing to say

 

 

[G STAR RAM]

6 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I was wondering if an answer, not that it would work with the number of people wanting a WTO brexit, would be to revoke article 50 and work to reform the mechanism to exit the EU. Allow for the negotiation period to be before article 50 is actioned. Allow the EU and the leaving country to come to a negotiated position that fits both sides, and a managed exit rather than a cliff edge exit. The backstop no longer is an issue because the terms of Brexit are agreed before we officially agree to leave. 

Will never be accepted by the hard brexit crew, unfortunately, but not enough MPs are in favour of a hard brexit, for what I believe are obvious reasons. 

Do you really expect The EU to give up their biggest bargaining tool?

[eddie]

11 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Not read the article yet, just the title but give or take a few votes the country is split 50-50 on Brexit - how can anyone possibly unite anything?  We rushed into it and now we're paying the price. 

IMHO this has exposed our political system for what it is, we need to take a few steps back think about a PR system so people get their voices heard and get a handle on wealth redistribution.  Whats going to happen though is the political parties will keep fighting over the 'iron throne' and put their careers, parties and continuation of the political system first and foremost.

I know people don't like Farage but if he puts PR into his 'I'm not calling it a manifesto, manifesto' he could really shake up the country for the good as none of the others want to.  He'll probably just want to seize power for himself though so we may as well all get our milkshakes ready now.

I admire some aspects of Farage, - he exercises some kind of hypnotic or magnetic qualities that get people to listen to him. I doubt very much that he will ever achieve 'real power', but with the imminent demise of the Conservative Party, who knows? A policy or two would be required in order to achieve that though, and that seems to be something he is either unwilling - or incapable - of producing. Something like the European elections, though - that's right up his street. Rhetoric is all he needs for that. Rhetoric and avoiding any sort of debate.

[GboroRam]

4 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Do you really expect The EU to give up their biggest bargaining tool?

I don't see it in the terms you obviously do. I don't see the EU trying to force the UK to succumb to their wishes. The language you are using implies you do. 

What bargaining tool are you referring to? 

Honestly I think the EU would be happy to let us leave. It's that TM has proposed and the EU 27 have backed a deal that the UK do not agree with. A situation entirely of our own making, admittedly because its as close to the unicorn that was promised as possible, but clearly it's a pony with a cornetto stuck on its head. 

The suggestion I made gives no extra power to any side. But would allow for a negotiation open on both sides, rather than the ludicrous situation we have now. 

[maxjam]

6 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

FFS - not deplatformed??

Between 1988 and 1994 our Government *literally* banned the IRA from being broadcast on British TV and radio.

Whatever negotiations and discussions took place that led to the GFA - it was done behind closed doors between diplomats and politicians. I'd be quite happy if TR was banned from the media and he discussed his issues through to resolution in private with politicians. That's the only path to peace. Leave him to spout his crap all over the airwaves and he will achieve his goal of leading an uprising.

Maybe you picked a very bad example ?

Agree, I wrote that very poorly.  I think deplatformed is my go to buzzword of the moment!  The point I was trying to make was that we negotiated with terrorists I'm sure we can discuss what Tommy Robinson has to say.

 

9 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

Not sure how "long time" you spent but in the UK religion is a protected characteristic under the Equalities Act 2010, so clearly all religion has protected status from discrimination and  harassment. What a strange thing to say

A long time.  I'm not talking legally, I'm talking about in the media - we get a very sanitized discussion in mainstream media and virtually non on social media. 

Furthermore if we can thank Mrs May for one thing its rejecting new 'islamophobia' laws

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9093832/theresa-may-rejects-islamophobia-bill-blasphemy-law-back-door/

 

[G STAR RAM]

6 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I don't see it in the terms you obviously do. I don't see the EU trying to force the UK to succumb to their wishes. The language you are using implies you do. 

What bargaining tool are you referring to? 

Honestly I think the EU would be happy to let us leave. It's that TM has proposed and the EU 27 have backed a deal that the UK do not agree with. A situation entirely of our own making, admittedly because its as close to the unicorn that was promised as possible, but clearly it's a pony with a cornetto stuck on its head. 

The suggestion I made gives no extra power to any side. But would allow for a negotiation open on both sides, rather than the ludicrous situation we have now. 

Bargaining tool was the wrong expression to use.

The EU don't really need a bargaining tool because they've played us like mugs since day one.

The suggestion you have made gives much more power to anyone leaving the EU because it allows for them to make a much more informed decision.

 

[maxjam]

5 minutes ago, eddie said:

I admire some aspects of Farage, - he exercises some kind of hypnotic or magnetic qualities that get people to listen to him. I doubt very much that he will ever achieve 'real power', but with the imminent demise of the Conservative Party, who knows? A policy or two would be required in order to achieve that though, and that seems to be something he is either unwilling - or incapable - of producing. Something like the European elections, though - that's right up his street. Rhetoric is all he needs for that. Rhetoric and avoiding any sort of debate.

Farage is divisive, but so is Corbyn and so is May.  Actually scrub that, May is universally hated now, so at least she has united the country in something.  If Farage and his Brexit Party get their act together for a general election they could be a force simply because of the other parties ineptitude.

Apparently if you stump up your £25 membership fee you will be involved in what policies they come up with, but looking at some of their high profile members I doubt you'll be able to come up with anything that everyone will be happy with.

UKIP have a PR pledge in their manifesto, but they are likely to get about 3 votes total, none of the other parties do.  If, and I assume they won't, the Brexit party don't include one we'll just be stuck in this mess with the political system forever.

[ronnieronalde]

2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

 

OK, so here goes.

I'm 50 minutes in to Robinson's Oxford Union speech, I went it to it with an open mind. I've been clear I hate the bloke and I'm still not ready to change that BUT.

If anyone watches the talk and has an interested bone in their body, it's tough to ignore what he says and how he presents it.

I feel a little bit sick for saying that but as I've said often, I'm honest good and bad.

What I've got to do now is research what he's said and what he's shown and also try to research HIS steps before and after, it's his speech so he's planned and prepared it specifically to show what he wanted to show.

ducking hell. I'm genuinely angry at myself for having even the slightest doubt that I am wrong about this guy being a total Bamford.

I might need a couple of days before I post on this thread again. I'm certainly not about to convert to the EDL but I'm going to do some reading and some watching..

Don't be angry with me lads, I might come back and have proved I was right.

Worrying.

[Stive Pesley]

5 minutes ago, maxjam said:

If Farage and his Brexit Party get their act together for a general election they could be a force simply because of the other parties ineptitude.

Apparently if you stump up your £25 membership fee you will be involved in what policies they come up with, but looking at some of their high profile members I doubt you'll be able to come up with anything that everyone will be happy with.

Yeah - will be interesting to see how that pans out - given it's looking more likely there will be an election before there is a brexit.

My gut feeling is that Farage has no interest in having to deliver the complexities of Brexit. The EU elections today were an easy one for him - get elected and do nothing by definition. Half the country can see through him already - if he had to actually deliver Brexit I think he would become universally translucent!

 

[maxjam]

6 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

My gut feeling is that Farage has no interest in having to deliver the complexities of Brexit. The EU elections today were an easy one for him - get elected and do nothing by definition. Half the country can see through him already - if he had to actually deliver Brexit I think he would become universally translucent!

I'm willing to give him a chance simply because he is the last best hope at this point (barrel, bottom, scraping...) - but yeah you're probably right.

[Stive Pesley]

4 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

OK, so here goes.

I'm 50 minutes in to Robinson's Oxford Union speech, I went it to it with an open mind. I've been clear I hate the bloke and I'm still not ready to change that BUT.

If anyone watches the talk and has an interested bone in their body, it's tough to ignore what he says and how he presents it.

I feel a little bit sick for saying that but as I've said often, I'm honest good and bad.

What I've got to do now is research what he's said and what he's shown and also try to research HIS steps before and after, it's his speech so he's planned and prepared it specifically to show what he wanted to show.

ducking hell. I'm genuinely angry at myself for having even the slightest doubt that I am wrong about this guy being a total Bamford.

I might need a couple of days before I post on this thread again. I'm certainly not about to convert to the EDL but I'm going to do some reading and some watching..

Don't be angry with me lads, I might come back and have proved I was right.

Worrying.

Don't feel bad mate - I watched it too a while ago and thought much the same thing. He has some fair basic premise, if he didn't then he wouldn't have got anywhere at all. It's just that his tactics and his motivations are all so so wrong. If he stuck to platforms like that it would be much better - it's hard to equate that with watching him and his thugs intimidating asian youths, threatening journalists by turning up at their house in the middle of the night and spouting straight-up inflammatory lies in the street. Do your research and you'll see

[ronnieronalde]

7 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

Don't feel bad mate - I watched it too a while ago and thought much the same thing. He has some fair basic premise, if he didn't then he wouldn't have got anywhere at all. It's just that his tactics and his motivations are all so so wrong. If he stuck to platforms like that it would be much better - it's hard to equate that with watching him and his thugs intimidating asian youths, threatening journalists by turning up at their house in the middle of the night and spouting straight-up inflammatory lies in the street. Do your research and you'll see

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking, for every positive slant I'll find a negative I'm sure.

I'd actually be keen to talk to the little fecker and find out why he can't separate the violence from the views. I see it almost as him trying to right a clear wrong with another wrong and if he can he'll out do their wrong x 2.

Still, this thread has been really entertaining and interesting and I have time on my hands so I can be thorough in reading up.

First time I've ever seen that Stacey Dooley piece though, I was away from the UK when that was recorded so missed it, amazed it's not more out there as a video section though.

Also the first time I've seen the steps he tried to take as a 21 year old, If it was any other outcome than violence and hatred I'd likely have admired his balls for making the stand. Jesus christ that takes some saying.

Interesting couple of days I've got coming up.

Is Luton REALLY that bad?

[Ambitious]

I'll be nervously watching the pound value against the Euro tomorrow - any huge crash would be like a kick in the boys to me! Let's hope for a good result and a sharp increase in the value of the £! 

[ronnieronalde]

9 minutes ago, Ambitious said:

I'll be nervously watching the pound value against the Euro tomorrow - any huge crash would be like a kick in the boys to me! Let's hope for a good result and a sharp increase in the value of the £! 

For some reason that reminds me of the Paul Hogan fosters ad where he meets the bloke who's crying cos his shares went down by 20p.

Ahh no worries mate, there you go - as he slides him 20p across the bar ?

When you say it'll be a kick in the boys. I'm assuming you get paid in a different currency then convert back?

I had the opposite of that a few years ago working to a UK contract when the pound was strong and then converting into local currency. The difference was massive, 

Frigging exchange rates eh? If only there was a way we all had the same currency no matter what country we lived in. Er..... ?

Hope all works out well for you pal.

[Ambitious]

5 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

For some reason that reminds me of the Paul Hogan fosters ad where he meets the bloke who's crying cos his shares went down by 20p.

Ahh no worries mate, there you go - as he slides him 20p across the bar ?

When you say it'll be a kick in the boys. I'm assuming you get paid in a different currency then convert back?

I had the opposite of that a few years ago working to a UK contract when the pound was strong and then converting into local currency. The difference was massive, 

Frigging exchange rates eh? If only there was a way we all had the same currency no matter what country we lived in. Er..... ?

Hope all works out well for you pal.

Thanks mate, luckily it's not that bad! I'm an importer so the changes to exchange rate impacts my margin, profits, targets... everything! It has a fairly big impact, so fingers crossed that at worst it doesn't drop below 1.10!