The Politics Thread 2019

[Norman]

4 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

It does seem bizarrely counter-intuitive that this would very likely happen, but you can't help thinking that if Cameron had negotiated a deal FIRST and then held a referendum on MY DEAL or REMAIN, then we wouldn't be in this mess

It's the right approach, just 3 years too late *

 

*and with the added bonus of the entire nation now being so totally sick of it all that we're largely past caring.

It isn't the right approach now though.

The fact that he won't take a general election because of his ratings shows you that. 

Only Labour fanbois could still be supporting his weak and feeble opposition.

[maxjam]

6 minutes ago, Montgolfier said:

No, I'm afraid that is not possible for me to do.

Does he blame Dominic Grieve for everything that is wrong in the world, as usual?

Shame, its a fascinating listen.

No, its a far more indepth than any current squabbling.

[McRamFan]

10 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Did you listen to the video I posted on the previous page?  There's a fair bit of insight and knowledge coming from David Starkey imo.

Him who his own description of himself is "a tendency towards showmanship... towards self-indulgence and explosion and repartee and occasional silliness and going over the top."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Starkey

 

[Stive Pesley]

8 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I didnt think the EU would have negotiated any deal until Article 50 was invoked?

That's a good point - you're right. That was a sticking point. The fact that A50 had 2 years as an abitrary length to do the negotiation didn't help. Didn't the guy that wrote it say it was never intended to be used so he didn't put too much effort into it?

 

[Stive Pesley]

4 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Shame, its a fascinating listen.

No, its a far more indepth than any current squabbling.

I watched it, but his style is as dry as a Nun's foofoo in the desert so I found it hard to stay engaged. I watched the whole thing and couldn't actually tell you what his point was. Maybe I need more caffeine ?

[maxjam]

3 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

Him who his own description of himself is "a tendency towards showmanship... towards self-indulgence and explosion and repartee and occasional silliness and going over the top."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Starkey

 

Well you can either listen to it or not I don't care, I just put it out there.  He may or may not have a flair talking but the content is there for debate.  We can either talk about the content or argue over the flamboyance of the speaker. 

[Ghost of Clough]

12 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

It does seem bizarrely counter-intuitive that this would very likely happen, but you can't help thinking that if Cameron had negotiated a deal FIRST and then held a referendum on MY DEAL or REMAIN, then we wouldn't be in this mess

It's the right approach, just 3 years too late *

 

*and with the added bonus of the entire nation now being so totally sick of it all that we're largely past caring.

That wouldn't work as the EU would have known a bad deal means a very low % of people voting leave - there would be zero motivation for the EU to give us anything resembling a partially good deal.

The right approach would have been to set no deal as the default from the second we decided to leave. Then from that position, try to negotiate a deal. That would have given us a stronger negotiating hand to achieve a deal which would pass through parliament.

[McRamFan]

3 minutes ago, Norman said:

It isn't the right approach now though.

The fact that he won't take a general election because of his ratings shows you that. 

Only Labour fanbois could still be supporting his weak and feeble opposition.

This isn't a labour thing, they know they won't win an election.  You miss the point that all other parties, including the DUP, won't give Boris an election. The reason is that the only way he can have total control of the house, is if it is in election mode.  It shuts down decision making/debating/legislation processes and the 'pace' of parliament is dictated by the incumbent PM and their party.  He can take up to 8 weeks to set a date for an election, leaving the UK in virtual suspended animation, having no control of what is going on.

Personally, my prediction is we will get Ken Clarke leading a cross party coalition of 'unity'.

[McRamFan]

3 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Well you can either listen to it or not I don't care, I just put it out there.  He may or may not have a flair talking but the content is there for debate.  We can either talk about the content or argue over the flamboyance of the speaker. 

Totally agree, however it can be helpful to understand where he comes from. 

[G STAR RAM]

1 minute ago, McRamFan said:

Hmm I go to quote you and it comes up with nothing...not surprised.

Oh. I'm not surprised either. Probably only let's you quote yourself because yours is the only opinion that is always 100% correct on here.

Illegal, not new, been in the press countless times.

Oh. Amazing that the press is always correct when you want it to be and also incorrect when you want it to be.

You only consider your own opinion, is it mutually exclusive to you?

Yes.

40 odd trade agreements out the window, you really think the UK will get a better deal than a trading block?  If so tell me how that works, but you can't as you know that the bigger the market the better the deal.

No, I dont think we will get a better trade deal than the EU does. I think some things will become cheaper and I think some things will become more expensive. Guess what though, my vote was not based purely on finance. For saying how much the Remainers go on about the politicians wanting to make themselves better of financially, there are many of you hung up on these trade deals.

We never lost our sovereignty, another brexit ******** lie.  The UK has the mother of all veto's.  Name one thing that the EU has forced on to the UK that is having a negative impact on the UK?  Yet another question you will fail to answer.

Freedom of movement.

We have more immigration from outside of the EU, leaving won't change that.  Yet another 'fact' that doesn't look at the whole picture.  Or are you just frightened of people who can communicate in more than one language?  This country, since the World Wars has needed immigration, just to keep the lights.  Utterly naive point of view.

I dont care what goes on from outside the EU, we have the power to control that and if I don't like the government policy I can vote against them.

Am I frightened of people that communicate in more than one language? No, why would I be? It shows a good level of intelligence. Am I against people coming here and not speaking in English? Yes. Why? Because is it not good for an integrated society. Am I against going into my city centre and seeing it swamped with jobless eastern Europeans? Yes. Am I against hand car washes springing up all over the place being manned by eastern Europeans who are not paying a penny in tax? Yes.

You think I am naive, I level the same charge against you.

So did you miss all the brexit MP's saying we'll get the best deals, it will be virtually the same deal, it will be easy, etc.?

No, I saw and heard all of that. And I believe if the country had pulled together after the Referendum it would have been a lot easier than it is. Having half of the country continuing to fight on behalf of the EU has not helped our bargaining position.

It's the Supreme Court, it was set up because that is how democracy works.  It is a set of checks and balances.  Go read wiki and you will have a better grasp.  Just because it's not written, does not mean it cannot be unlawful.  Your grasp of the law is quite weak.  Law, by it's nature, is constantly tested.

I will add Law to your list of specialist subjects but must warn you that the list is getting quite long now. Just off to read Wiki now and that should see me sitting in the Supreme Court by the end of next week hopefully.

You are the one incapable of having a balanced discussion, as you do your utmost to avoid answering a direct question.  You just deflect, and reiterate the same sound bites, that have no factual backing.

Well, there were a few posters yesterday who said differently but it would be silly of me to think that someone with a different opinion to you could be correct. 

Have you admitted that you was wrong about BJ and the ERG voting down May's deal every time yet? If not, can I see your factual backing please?

 

[Spanish]

8 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

That wouldn't work as the EU would have known a bad deal means a very low % of people voting leave - there would be zero motivation for the EU to give us anything resembling a partially good deal.

The right approach would have been to set no deal as the default from the second we decided to leave. Then from that position, try to negotiate a deal. That would have given us a stronger negotiating hand to achieve a deal which would pass through parliament.

better would have ben a vote that contained no deal.  remain or exit by x date with or without a deal would have added clarity and a driving force for a deal

[maxjam]

For anyone thats interested a short version of what David Starkey said here;

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/iain-dale/dr-david-starkey-brutal-analysis-on-supreme-court/

[Norman]

12 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

This isn't a labour thing, they know they won't win an election.  You miss the point that all other parties, including the DUP, won't give Boris an election. The reason is that the only way he can have total control of the house, is if it is in election mode.  It shuts down decision making/debating/legislation processes and the 'pace' of parliament is dictated by the incumbent PM and their party.  He can take up to 8 weeks to set a date for an election, leaving the UK in virtual suspended animation, having no control of what is going on.

Personally, my prediction is we will get Ken Clarke leading a cross party coalition of 'unity'.

100s of millions in delays and counting. He refuses to negotiate. He refuses general elections despite calling for one 30 odd times including 7 days before he was offered one. His poor oposition is costing this country so much money.

Legislation cannot be passed. Increases in spending cannot be passed. Increase to NHS funding cannot be passed. 

Yet we are expected to believe Corbyn is about the people. He is about power. Tied to the unions who no longer actually represent the majority of workers in this countty.

Give people a vote he says. Give us one then.

[McRamFan]

6 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Have you admitted that you was wrong about BJ and the ERG voting down May's deal every time yet? If not, can I see your factual backing please?

Already have shown the proof, they voted it down the Meaningful Vote Twice.  They voted with the TM on a third vote which was almost similar to MV 1 and 2, there reason was they feared that no deal brexit would be off the table.

 

9 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I will add Law to your list of specialist subjects but must warn you that the list is getting quite long now. Just off to read Wiki now and that should see me sitting in the Supreme Court by the end of next week hopefully.

It's called research, instead of guess work.

10 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Am I against going into my city centre and seeing it swamped with jobless eastern Europeans?

Exaggeration and fear mongering.

 

11 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

No, I saw and heard all of that.

You are a party of one on that.

https://www.indy100.com/article/no-deal-brexit-adequate-food-boris-johnson-david-davis-dominic-raab-8463121

 

[Stive Pesley]

7 minutes ago, maxjam said:

For anyone thats interested a short version of what David Starkey said here;

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/iain-dale/dr-david-starkey-brutal-analysis-on-supreme-court/

Cheers - agree with some of his comments. I did wonder if the ruling was more about setting a precedent for future politics. Say for example if (stop laughing) Corbyn were to get in and immediately try to implement his manifesto - that would be the most transformative agenda of modern times. There are many many powerful vested interests in that NOT happening. Dragging everything controversial he were to try and implement into the supreme court would make his job impossible.

Still - the best bit about the article is the NFSW lopping of the headline in my browser. Too many tabs open!

 

[McRamFan]

3 minutes ago, Norman said:

100s of millions in delays and counting. He refuses to negotiate. He refuses general elections despite calling for one 30 odd times including 7 days before he was offered one. His poor oposition is costing this country so much money.

Legislation cannot be passed. Increases in spending cannot be passed. Increase to NHS funding cannot be passed. 

Yet we are expected to believe Corbyn is about the people. He is about power. Tied to the unions who no longer actually represent the majority of workers in this countty.

Give people a vote he says. Give us one then.

I am not a labour supporter.  NONE of the other parties will give him a general election either. 

Legislation can and has passed, just last month.  NHS funding isn't determined on a vote, increases in spending is not voted on either.  Those are down to the party in charge.  The one that cut police numbers by 20,000, when May was Home Sec, then announced they where going to recruit 20,000 when she became MP.  Cut the NHS funding, in real terms, then announced millions will be pumped in.....from a fund that is actually NHS money that is a safety net, that is there in case of major issues, such as a massive pandemic, or hospitals burning down.

 

[G STAR RAM]

20 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

Already have shown the proof, they voted it down the Meaningful Vote Twice.  They voted with the TM on a third vote which was almost similar to MV 1 and 2, there reason was they feared that no deal brexit would be off the table.

???

It's called research, instead of guess work.

So in a matter of a week you've become such an expert in Law that you can call other peoples grasp of it 'weak'? You are seriously wasted on this forum.

Exaggeration and fear mongering.

Can you please explain how you know my personal circumstances? Where do I live? When do I go into the town/city centre? What situations have I been subjected to that lead me to my opinion? 

Oh that's right, it is me that is the naive one.

You are a party of one on that.

https://www.indy100.com/article/no-deal-brexit-adequate-food-boris-johnson-david-davis-dominic-raab-8463121

Not even going to bother reading it, will be another pointless link that gives a view that agrees with your point but holds no real substance.

 

[McRamFan]

7 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

So in a matter of a week you've become such an expert in Law that you can call other peoples grasp of it 'weak'? You are seriously wasted on this forum.

You have no idea what my background is, just like you said, I don't know yours.  However I can see fear mongering a country mile off.

You won't bother reading it, I knew that anyway, anything that is actually backed up by facts, your not interested in. 

Show me proof that any city is awash with Eastern Europeans hanging out and all unemployed....

[G STAR RAM]

11 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

You have no idea what my background is, just like you said, I don't know yours.  However I can see fear mongering a country mile off.

Another thing to add to your list of specialities.

You won't bother reading it, I knew that anyway, anything that is actually backed up by facts, your not interested in. 

Do you seriously believe every time you post a link that backs up your point, it makes it a fact? Your naivety shines through more and more with each post you make.

Show me proof that any city is awash with Eastern Europeans hanging out and all unemployed....

Show you proof?

Pay a visit to some places. It may open your eyes. Real life experience is often much more worthwhile than unverified links off the internet.

 

[cstand]

11 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Johnson will get us a tremendous deal from the EU. It will be one of the greatest deals ever made. It will probably be the best deal ever made ever. He is working really hard on it now. Tremendously hard. Harder than anyone has ever worked on a deal. 

BJ has no chance of a deal he wants with the EU because the anti democratic brain dead remainers in Parliament have removed the no deal option which TBH is our only trump card we can play.

Lets hope the EU kick us out with no deal because they must know like McRamFan our economy will go into freefall and it will deter other countries from leaving.

Or maybe they just want us for our money which they love to waste.