The Politics Thread 2019

[BaaLocks]

18 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I'm far from being an economist but I would have thought it logical that boosts to local economies would have a positive knock on effect for the wider economy.

Who knows, it could even lead to a re-emergence of the high street...remember that?

I'm not an economist either, and what I do know is that if you put two economists in the room the only thing you can be assured of is that they won't agree so we don't need to worry about that.

What I would say is that isolation, protectionism (including tariffs) has pretty much never worked as a method for economic growth. You could argue that some economies in the middle ages, Japan behind the Bamboo Curtain, might have prospered but no country in recent times has. Think about it in the extreme - if we said we are only going to use produce manufactured in Derbyshire but everywhere else in the UK can trade openly do we honestly believe that would allow Derbyshire to prosper? Of course not.

As for the High Street, yes I totally agree - but I'm not sure it's quite the way to get there.

[G STAR RAM]

28 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Shall we stick to "white nationalist" then? Is that easier?

Quite honestly if anyone reads the wikipedia page for the "Proud Boys" and then learned they were going to march in their city looking for trouble and the side you'd pick is "anti those who seek to defend the peace" then that's pretty shameful

Who says nationalists have to be white? If I didnt know better I would say you was being racist there.

And since when did Antifa become defenders of the peace? Call me old fashioned but I always thought that was the job of an organisation named 'police'.

Of course we all know if Antifa didnt turn up at these rallies there would be nothing to defend against. They go there looking for trouble all in the name of 'defending the peace'. Laughable.

[G STAR RAM]

18 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

The simple economics is that the UK cannot produce enough to feed itself.

Here is the view of some farming organisation, but hey what do they know.

https://www.theweek.co.uk/95658/can-britain-ever-be-food-self-sufficient

The up shot, farmers will have to work harder, as apparently they are not at the moment....

Dont ever remember saying we would be self sufficient, point me back in the direction of my post and I will retract it.

[G STAR RAM]

13 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

I'm not an economist either, and what I do know is that if you put two economists in the room the only thing you can be assured of is that they won't agree so we don't need to worry about that.

What I would say is that isolation, protectionism (including tariffs) has pretty much never worked as a method for economic growth. You could argue that some economies in the middle ages, Japan behind the Bamboo Curtain, might have prospered but no country in recent times has. Think about it in the extreme - if we said we are only going to use produce manufactured in Derbyshire but everywhere else in the UK can trade openly do we honestly believe that would allow Derbyshire to prosper? Of course not.

As for the High Street, yes I totally agree - but I'm not sure it's quite the way to get there.

Thanks, nice reasoned response...you've caught me off guard with that!

Re the high street obviously that was a huge leap of faith but obviously we have to start somewhere!

[Stive Pesley]

10 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Who says nationalists have to be white? If I didnt know better I would say you was being racist there.

I assume you are joking/deflecting yet again. The "Proud Boys" are self-confessed white nationalists that promote political violence as one of their aims, but you carry on trying to avoid the subject

13 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Of course we all know if Antifa didnt turn up at these rallies there would be nothing to defend against.

You reckon? Their aim is to march into areas with the largest "non-white" population and intimidate and assault people and destroy property.

I'll ask you again - who do you believe are the bad guys here?

[BaaLocks]

Bit of food for thought on this (I know, clever aren't I....) on the impact of No Deal. On day one, we lose:

1) Tariff free imports from 140 countries

2) Tariff free exports to 90 countries

3) Both imports and exports free from regulatory barriers with 30+ countries

Remembering that Parliament is in recess now. We were told don't waste the extension, and we spent two months in a Tory leadership followed by six weeks of recess (I don't say holiday as many MPs do use this time well to work in their constituency). But Gove (and the Government report leaked) tells us that we will expect disruption - I could bear that as part of the process if it was being considered but we seem a long, long, long way from being able to cope with this.

[BaaLocks]

On the whole Antifa / Proud Boys / white supremacists discussion - my own personal view is that we need to be very careful not to conflate the issues happening over there to what is happening here. There are many common points and areas but the US have their own issues they have to resolve them on their own terms. Interestingly, I see more on the right (Farage / Trump / Banks) keen to align the situation than those on the left (Corbyn / Sanders) - which is probably strong enough reason for me to not go down that path.

[Norman]

Antifa about to be named a terrorist organisation. They also support direct action that includes physical violence.

Just as bad as every other extreme view.

[G STAR RAM]

26 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

I assume you are joking/deflecting yet again. The "Proud Boys" are self-confessed white nationalists that promote political violence as one of their aims, but you carry on trying to avoid the subject

You reckon? Their aim is to march into areas with the largest "non-white" population and intimidate and assault people and destroy property.

Not an expert on the subject, can you provide links to where they self proclaim as white nationalists and state their aims. I assume this will be from their official literature rather than newspaper articles.

I'll ask you again - who do you believe are the bad guys here?

Anyone engaging in violence against people with different beliefs.

I'll ask you again, when were Antifa appointed as 'defenders of the peace' thereby taking on the role of the police?

 

[GboroRam]

20 minutes ago, Norman said:

Antifa about to be named a terrorist organisation. They also support direct action that includes physical violence.

Just as bad as every other extreme view.

Have you ever met anyone from this Antifa bogeyman organisation?

I've seen white nationalists marching on the streets in the UK. I've also seen anti-fascist protesters oppose them. And I don't think they were wrong. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom to spout intolerance and hatred. 

[maxjam]

38 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

I'll ask you again - who do you believe are the bad guys here?

Can't both be at fault?

Its just another step on the escalation ladder, which is why I find the over-reaction to the unsubstantiated Owen Jones incident so disheartening.

[G STAR RAM]

31 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

Bit of food for thought on this (I know, clever aren't I....) on the impact of No Deal. On day one, we lose:

1) Tariff free imports from 140 countries

2) Tariff free exports to 90 countries

3) Both imports and exports free from regulatory barriers with 30+ countries

Remembering that Parliament is in recess now. We were told don't waste the extension, and we spent two months in a Tory leadership followed by six weeks of recess (I don't say holiday as many MPs do use this time well to work in their constituency). But Gove (and the Government report leaked) tells us that we will expect disruption - I could bear that as part of the process if it was being considered but we seem a long, long, long way from being able to cope with this.

Only caught snippets of news over the weekend. But sure I read that this leaked government report, that a few are now using as the actual outcome of a no deal Brexit, was a worst case scenario.

Happy to be corrected if I am wrong!

[G STAR RAM]

5 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Have you ever met anyone from this Antifa bogeyman organisation?

I've seen white nationalists marching on the streets in the UK. I've also seen anti-fascist protesters oppose them. And I don't think they were wrong. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom to spout intolerance and hatred. 

Intolerance and hatred is fine to be used during freedom of speech.

If any laws are broken the police will deal with it.

I dont remember Antifa clashing with Anjem Choudhury and his merry men when they were spouting intolerance and hatred? Any reason?

[Norman]

9 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Have you ever met anyone from this Antifa bogeyman organisation?

I've seen white nationalists marching on the streets in the UK. I've also seen anti-fascist protesters oppose them. And I don't think they were wrong. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom to spout intolerance and hatred. 

Antifa support direct action including physical violence to further their own political views. They will be a terrorist organisation soon.

They can oppose white nationalists. But the Police protect us from those views. Those views are illegal. People go to prison for being in those groups.

Never met anyone from the IRA or ALM either. Does that make them not exist?

[GboroRam]

Are Antifa in any way relevant in this country or are they just being used to justify white nationalism in the UK? 

Not sure what the Arab Liberation Movement relevance is, but the IRA blew stuff up and killed people in this country. I don't think Antifa is a thing here. 

What relevance do Antifa have to justify the amount of times they get mentioned? 

[BaaLocks]

26 minutes ago, Norman said:

Antifa about to be named a terrorist organisation. They also support direct action that includes physical violence.

Just as bad as every other extreme view.

It was Trump who tweeted that Antifa are potentially being considered as a terrorist organization. Trump is a racist, Trump is a bigot, his suggestion neither surprises nor convinces me it is fuelled by anything other than forwarding his own racist and bigoted agenda.  

[Norman]

2 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Are Antifa in any way relevant in this country or are they just being used to justify white nationalism in the UK? 

Not sure what the Arab Liberation Movement relevance is, but the IRA blew stuff up and killed people in this country. I don't think Antifa is a thing here. 

What relevance do Antifa have to justify the amount of times they get mentioned? 

You don't know who the ALM are? They are responsible for most of the terrorism in this country.

al-Muhajiroun.

The leader of this group was given prime time tele, seats on panels on shows like Newsnight.

The rise of the far right is the product of the far left. And now the far left using violence to counter it is being justified.

Nobody is justifying white nationalism. There isn't a racist person in this thread or anyone defending those views.

[Norman]

3 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

It was Trump who tweeted that Antifa are potentially being considered as a terrorist organization. Trump is a racist, Trump is a bigot, his suggestion neither surprises nor convinces me it is fuelled by anything other than forwarding his own racist and bigoted agenda.  

Anyone who supports physical violence to further their own politcal view via direct action is what then?

[BaaLocks]

27 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Only caught snippets of news over the weekend. But sure I read that this leaked government report, that a few are now using as the actual outcome of a no deal Brexit, was a worst case scenario.

Happy to be corrected if I am wrong!

I think on the qualitative elements (no fresh drinking water, no medicines) you are probably correct. But these are clear quantitative / black and white things that will happen - unless we are able to do something about it in the next few weeks.

What made me smile was even Government officials dispelling these statements as 'Project Fear' even though the report that was leaked was a government report. We are all so entrenched in protecting our corner that we seem to have completely lost the ability to see how to progress.

[BaaLocks]

3 minutes ago, Norman said:

Anyone who supports physical violence to further their own politcal view via direct action is what then?

Unwelcome - from whatever side they originate