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The Politics Thread 2019

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2 hours ago, SchtivePesley said:

On the face of it it's not a good look to state "I will do *anything* to avoid a no-deal Brexit" - and then the next day refuse to get behind the plan put forward by the leader of the opposition to avoid a no-deal Brexit. Completely wrecks their image as the Hard Remain party

No surprise then that they are now backtracking and saying that they have no principled objection to it...

 

No Schtive, it's because JC is completely pants and has no credibility.

All along, no one knew what his standpoint on BREXIT was. His plan was to have no plan and hope the Tories stuff it so badly he can then step in, besmirched.

The local election results showed that this plan has failed miserably, and he has had to desperately go all 'remainy' as he has (I imagine) been told he is losing potential voters in droves to the Lib Dems/Greens.

The Labour Party is now basically an unelectable personality cult, set up, not to get into Govt - but to be constantly alert and ready to defeat any Blairite coup/plot.

The fact he is whining about not being allowed to lead any possible stand-in Govt is like the weasly bloke at the bar whining because he 'was standing there longest, and the barman is an ********', when someone else gets served.

 

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29 minutes ago, WhiteHorseRam said:

No Schtive, it's because JC is completely pants and has no credibility.

Well that's your opinion, and I know nothing will change your mind so I won't bother trying

However it's clear that remainers need to decide which they oppose the most.

A no-deal Brexit or a Corbyn led govt.

As it stands they are mutually exclusive

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The issue Labour has is that Momentum has created JC as leader, but the parliamentary party - who are closer to the "realpolitik" of the nation - view him at best with antipathy and mainly with hostility.

So he has no command in Parliament, but cannot be unseated within the party.

Stalemate......

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11 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Well that's your opinion, and I know nothing will change your mind so I won't bother trying

However it's clear that remainers need to decide which they oppose the most.

A no-deal Brexit or a Corbyn led govt.

As it stands they are mutually exclusive

Of course the third option, a slightly amended deal, could have got us through this. Maybe traded off having the backstop in place with an option to return or leave fully in five years time (with some sort of sweetened 'welcome back' package if life on our own did turn out to be terrible). I know, it sounds nuts but at least it would get us over the line and all the Europeans would have had to do was stab Theresa May to get it. Something like "Boris came to us with a more conciliatory approach and we got things moving quickly". But they've blocked that one as well now with their hard line approach on any change - it's a mess on all sides.

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

The issue Labour has is that Momentum has created JC as leader, but the parliamentary party - who are closer to the "realpolitik" of the nation - view him at best with antipathy and mainly with hostility.

So he has no command in Parliament, but cannot be unseated within the party.

Stalemate......

While he remains unclear on Brexit, once he takes a firm view then MPs move to either end of the argument - for or against him - and the balance tips.

He knows he can only lose in this argument - move towards remain and he loses all the Brexit friendly people in his party but gains Anna Soubry and a scattering of Lib Dems (plus he is on record in the past as saying he doesn't agree with the European Union).

Go all Brexity and he risks his whole party cleaving in two. We can slam Corbyn for not taking a position but that is largely because he can't without upsetting the whole apple cart.

Edited by BaaLocks

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23 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

While he remains unclear on Brexit, once he takes a firm view then MPs move to either end of the argument - for or against him - and the balance tips.

He knows he can only lose in this argument - move towards remain and he loses all the Brexit friendly people in his party but gains Anna Soubry and a scattering of Lib Dems (plus he is on record in the past as saying he doesn't agree with the European Union).

Go all Brexity and he risks his whole party cleaving in two. We can slam Corbyn for not taking a position but that is largely because he can't without upsetting the whole apple cart.

My point was really about the contention between the Parliamentary Labour Party and the wider movement - the MPs cannot on their own kick Jeremy Corbyn out because of the constitution of the Labour Party. Very similar to the early 80's that I read about in Tony Benn's diaries - the MPs that the public quite like and elect are the ones usually loathed by the Labour Party machine.

Tom Watson is the current day example.

It does fetter him from taking a clear position though - Momentum (who put him there) are generally pro-remain I understand.

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32 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

While he remains unclear on Brexit, once he takes a firm view then MPs move to either end of the argument - for or against him - and the balance tips.

He knows he can only lose in this argument - move towards remain and he loses all the Brexit friendly people in his party but gains Anna Soubry and a scattering of Lib Dems (plus he is on record in the past as saying he doesn't agree with the European Union).

Go all Brexity and he risks his whole party cleaving in two. We can slam Corbyn for not taking a position but that is largely because he can't without upsetting the whole apple cart.

Whatever happened to conviction and leadership?

too many bamfords on all sides pursuing power for powers sake.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

The issue Labour has is that Momentum has created JC as leader, but the parliamentary party - who are closer to the "realpolitik" of the nation - view him at best with antipathy and mainly with hostility.

So he has no command in Parliament, but cannot be unseated within the party.

Stalemate......

Agree with that apart from the bit about the PLP being closer to realpolitik of the nation. If argue it's the opposite and that's why Momentum has been so successful. The problem is that parliamentary politics as a whole is now so archaic and divorced from the average person's life it's crippled.

Labour under Corbyn has an unprecedented number of members. No other party has that gras roots engagement. Mad that certain quarters seem to want to paint that as a weakness in a political party. Isn't that how it should be?

You're perhaps mistaking realpolitik for the antipathy of those who don't want to think too hard about life?

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Just now, SchtivePesley said:

Agree with that apart from the bit about the PLP being closer to realpolitik of the nation. If argue it's the opposite and that's why Momentum has been so successful. The problem is that parliamentary politics as a whole is now so archaic and divorced from the average person's life it's crippled.

Labour under Corbyn has an unprecedented number of members. No other party has that gras roots engagement. Mad that certain quarters seem to want to paint that as a weakness in a political party. Isn't that how it should be?

You're perhaps mistaking realpolitik for the antipathy of those who don't want to think too hard about life?

I should make myself more clear.....😂

by “realpolitik” I really mean that they are centre-left by nature which I think is more towards the electorate position.

Youre right of course about the membership. But even so we’re talking something like 500,000 out of an electorate of something like 40m? It’s quite small beer really.

What we have to crack somehow is the generational transfer issues that lead to our young people feeling disenfranchised and the older generations wanting to pull up the drawbridge. Can there be a political party for all the people?

 

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34 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

My point was really about the contention between the Parliamentary Labour Party and the wider movement - the MPs cannot on their own kick Jeremy Corbyn out because of the constitution of the Labour Party. Very similar to the early 80's that I read about in Tony Benn's diaries - the MPs that the public quite like and elect are the ones usually loathed by the Labour Party machine.

Tom Watson is the current day example.

It does fetter him from taking a clear position though - Momentum (who put him there) are generally pro-remain I understand.

Yes, good point - it is a different flavour of the same point. Many of those geographies where, to use an old quote, the locals would vote for a bag of potatoes if it had a red rosette on it are also areas of low income that things like immigration caused to be high Brexit voting (Sunderland for example). Then again, they are the areas that are likely to get seriously hit first when the impact of Brexit comes to bear. So JC gets shot for supporting either position. There is no answer I'm afraid, which I guess Corbyn worked out a long time ago and I guess he wakes up every morning - like many of us - just wishing that this was nothing more than a Bobby Ewing in the shower moment.

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9 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

Yes, good point - it is a different flavour of the same point. Many of those geographies where, to use an old quote, the locals would vote for a bag of potatoes if it had a red rosette on it are also areas of low income that things like immigration caused to be high Brexit voting (Sunderland for example). Then again, they are the areas that are likely to get seriously hit first when the impact of Brexit comes to bear. So JC gets shot for supporting either position. There is no answer I'm afraid, which I guess Corbyn worked out a long time ago and I guess he wakes up every morning - like many of us - just wishing that this was nothing more than a Bobby Ewing in the shower moment.

The real key was education education education, as tony blair stated before he got sidetracked by WMD, legacy, third terms etc

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

The real key was education education education, as tony blair stated before he got sidetracked by WMD, legacy, third terms etc

The real key was not to let the referendum happen in the first place, as Ed Milliband correctly stated but we didn't listen - preferring to judge him on one photo of him eating a bacon sandwich. When they write the book on all this, that photo will be the moment from whence it all stemmed. You might not like him as a politician but he was right.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-21003095/ed-miliband-eu-referendum-dangerous from 2013 btw.

Edited by BaaLocks

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1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

Hang on...nobody even knew that no deal was an option did they?

 

 

Don’t think that no deal was positioned as an option, more of a possible consequence by the Remain side.

you need the context......was this put out to counter the leave messaging of how “easy” a good deal would be to strike? I don’t know the answer btw - but the context is helpful to understand the arguments.

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11 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Don’t think that no deal was positioned as an option, more of a possible consequence by the Remain side.

you need the context......was this put out to counter the leave messaging of how “easy” a good deal would be to strike? I don’t know the answer btw - but the context is helpful to understand the arguments.

This is what you voted for - how you interpreted it was dependent on what you thought it said.

Utterly unbelievable that this was allowed to happen, forget your views on Brexit but it is beyond staggering that this was it and there was no majority threshold, we could have left on a majority of one had it come to that.

So this is why the 'No Deal' crew and every other form of Brexit person deserve to get frustrated when people tell them that they didn't know what they were voting for. Their leave vote is considered in exactly the same way as every other one - whether you are a 'let it all burn', Norway +, 'only if it suits us' or 'I might want to think again once I know that an Irish border is nigh on impossible'. In many ways, they were as cheated as everyone else.

image.thumb.png.e6306afd230ab0543db8029eed9f5ac2.png

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18 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

This is what you voted for - how you interpreted it was dependent on what you thought it said.

Utterly unbelievable that this was allowed to happen, forget your views on Brexit but it is beyond staggering that this was it and there was no majority threshold, we could have left on a majority of one had it come to that.

So this is why the 'No Deal' crew and every other form of Brexit person deserve to get frustrated when people tell them that they didn't know what they were voting for. Their leave vote is considered in exactly the same way as every other one - whether you are a 'let it all burn', Norway +, 'only if it suits us' or 'I might want to think again once I know that an Irish border is nigh on impossible'. In many ways, they were as cheated as everyone else.

image.thumb.png.e6306afd230ab0543db8029eed9f5ac2.png

This is what was on the card. But the arguments and options were - or should have been - formed by the campaigns, the equivalent of a general election "manifesto". I have no doubt that there will be a possibly significant proportion of voters who didn't bother digesting any of the arguments as their minds were already made up. The equivalent of the died in the wool Labour or Tory voter. But there were many others who wanted to engage, listen and consider the arguments as they were put to them.

Reflecting back on it now, this decision was arguably far more momentous than a General Election in terms of its implications for the country. Therefore it should have received far more careful attention in terms of how each side was allowed to pitch its arguments than it got. That the whole thing was dreadfully organised and run now merely fuels the massive discord and division.

But we are where we are and the irony of the attempts to re-run the campaign to leave what was pitched as a fundamentally undemocratic institution are not lost on me.

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15 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

This is what was on the card. But the arguments and options were - or should have been - formed by the campaigns, the equivalent of a general election "manifesto". I have no doubt that there will be a possibly significant proportion of voters who didn't bother digesting any of the arguments as their minds were already made up. The equivalent of the died in the wool Labour or Tory voter. But there were many others who wanted to engage, listen and consider the arguments as they were put to them.

Reflecting back on it now, this decision was arguably far more momentous than a General Election in terms of its implications for the country. Therefore it should have received far more careful attention in terms of how each side was allowed to pitch its arguments than it got. That the whole thing was dreadfully organised and run now merely fuels the massive discord and division.

But we are where we are and the irony of the attempts to re-run the campaign to leave what was pitched as a fundamentally undemocratic institution are not lost on me.

Should David Cameron remain a member of the United Kingdom or leave the United Kingdom?

Remain a member of the United Kingdom but under shed arrest.

Leave the United Kingdom without any form of deal. Take him to the airport and put him on the furthest flight away with his passport and nothing else.

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Surprised no one has mentioned this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49368217

A key component of what is left of the UK's manufacturing, and the government will not or cannot support it.  However, Turkey's Army's pension fund sees a good opportunity to invest.  It has some way to go to be over the final hurdle, looks promising though.

Just another example of the tories not being interested in anything that is outside of the M25 or finance/banking related.

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