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The Politics Thread 2019


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20 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

All political violence is bad. Always has been, nothing good has ever come from one side or the other persecuting their political opponents.

When you look at history though, were the Tolpuddle Martyrs heroes or traitors, (they got 7 years hard labour and transported to Australia for asking for a wage rise), were the first lefties who fought and campaigned for the vote for ordinary people terrorists, traitors or unbelievably brave people who risked everything, including their lives, to try and make a better future for their families. The early pioneers of the vote for all campaigns would nowadays be classed as socialist terrorists for fighting for basic human rights.

Less than one hundred years ago the life of an average British person was pretty miserable, no paid holidays, no sick pay, no pensions, no health care, slum housing, poverty, none of those things were changed without the courage to fight the ruling class who controlled the country. Our great grandparents had to fight to make this country a better place for the majority, we cannot even imagine how brave and strong they had to be do that. 

Are we really going to give it all up  

The ruling classes, the elite, the people who believe they have an unalienable right to rule the world (whatever you wish to call them), will always use divide and rule to stop the many from forcing the few to act in the greater interest.

Yet here we are, in 2019, with right wing think tanks suggesting moving the pensionable age to 75, Politicians actively trying to destroy the one, single system that dragged millions out of poverty and destitution, the Welfare State, just to enable vast profits for a few huge corporations.

Can no one see what the big picture is? Its between power and the people. It always has been. The rich and powerful will always do whats right for themselves.

I only wish the rest of us would do the same instead of believing the propaganda they spout about all our problems being down to poor people.

 

 

 

The positive responses to this post are mostly, if not, by the usual forum Communists and far left Stalinist agitators.

I'd be interested what a true centrist like @G STAR RAM or @maxjam thinks about this sort of post, without mentioning extreme US political militias. And @Norman is this the sort of thing that has produced far right extremism?

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1 hour ago, ariotofmyown said:

The positive responses to this post are mostly, if not, by the usual forum Communists and far left Stalinist agitators.

I'd be interested what a true centrist like @G STAR RAM or @maxjam thinks about this sort of post, without mentioning extreme US political militias. And @Norman is this the sort of thing that has produced far right extremism?

I dont have a problem with that post. Its though provoking and well reasoned, even if I disagree with some of the content.

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56 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I dont have a problem with that post. Its though provoking and well reasoned, even if I disagree with some of the content.

I appreciate that, I've always enjoyed reading your posts and feel that you are one of those people I could debate our political differences over a pint without falling out with.

Its so difficult on social media to discuss politics.

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6 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

I appreciate that, I've always enjoyed reading your posts and feel that you are one of those people I could debate our political differences over a pint without falling out with.

Its so difficult on social media to discuss politics.

I think almost everyone on here would be fine to discuss politics with in real life. Social media seems to bring out the worst in people. 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

I dont have a problem with that post. Its though provoking and well reasoned, even if I disagree with some of the content.

And that is the sort of debate that is so much more interesting and constructive. Actual detail, policy without focusing purely on personalities or extremes.

I'm clearly more sympathetic with Corbyn's policies but feel he has rarely been attacked for them. Probably as his main critics know they are pretty popular.

Most the abuse May received was down to her lack of leadership, dodgy voice etc. Very little analysis on how her position was basically hopeless due to the arithmetic in parliament. Something that was again ignored during the Tory leadership contest.

Not sure there is any way back for critical thought or questioning really. As least Johnson currently still has to face politicians in the house of commons and can't purely give a one-sided view of the world on social media like Trump can. I assume that is where we are heading though 

 

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On ‎20‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 00:29, uttoxram75 said:

…..

I only wish the rest of us would do the same instead of believing the propaganda they spout about all our problems being down to poor people.

 

 

 

Great post.

I have always thought that a great requirement for politicians would be that every time they appeared speaking in parliament or on TV, etc etc, they have to wear a large 'name badge' on their lapel showing clearly how much they are worth - personal/family/business.

That would make people pay attention.

'Hey, the guy who decides if the OAP pension goes up £2 is worth £89 million …… hmm'

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11 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

The positive responses to this post are mostly, if not, by the usual forum Communists and far left Stalinist agitators.

I'd be interested what a true centrist like @G STAR RAM or @maxjam thinks about this sort of post, without mentioning extreme US political militias. And @Norman is this the sort of thing that has produced far right extremism?

To be honest I don't really comment a lot on the politics stuff, yeah I get dragged in sometimes but I don't really know an awful lot about politics or history I'm more of a science and tech kinda guy!  What I do have a strong interest in and what does get me involved however is the (social) media bias and censorship angle - my recent posts re. the Owen Jones incident were more concerned about the speed of which it was weaponised and broadcast all over the media without verification to push an agenda more than anything else.

With regards to the @ariotofmyown post however something I didn't learn about until relatively recently was the history of voting in the UK.  I always assumed the womens suffragette battle was a long and arduous one to get the vote (and it was) but mens suffrage has been mostly forgotten by history, it was only 10 years earlier that the majority of men got the vote as well - prior to that it was basically only the wealthy that were entitled to vote.  So I guess in many ways some things never change, now the elites just use other methods (media etc) or ignore votes when they don't get what they want.

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3 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

And that is the sort of debate that is so much more interesting and constructive. Actual detail, policy without focusing purely on personalities or extremes.

I'm clearly more sympathetic with Corbyn's policies but feel he has rarely been attacked for them. Probably as his main critics know they are pretty popular.

This is my position as well.

Anyone with similar policies will face character assassination of the same magnitude.

A lot of labour's policies are difficult to criticise when broken down into their component parts so vilifying the Leader, or his top team, is a safer bet than risking raising public awareness of the real issues facing us all. 

As Corbyn once said, "Its not me they're scared of, its  you"

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34 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

This is my position as well.

Anyone with similar policies will face character assassination of the same magnitude.

A lot of labour's policies are difficult to criticise when broken down into their component parts so vilifying the Leader, or his top team, is a safer bet than risking raising public awareness of the real issues facing us all. 

As Corbyn once said, "Its not me they're scared of, its  you"

The thing is policies will not even get discussed when the person putting them together has very little credibility.

You only have to look at how Corbyn's position on the EU has crumbled to see that he is weak and has no leadership qualities. 

 

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35 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

A lot of labour's policies are difficult to criticise when broken down into their component parts so vilifying the Leader, or his top team, is a safer bet than risking raising public awareness of the real issues facing us all.

Indeed. Or endlessly quiz where the money is coming from. In a way that doesn't happen when we bail out the banks, strike a deal with the DUP to prop up the government, plan to stabilise the country in the event of a no-deal Brexit, all the increasingly bizarre promises of spending that BJ has come out with since taking office etc etc

It all goes back to what Max said earlier - media have controlled the narrative to the point where vast swathes of the population are unable to disassociate Corbyn (terrorist sympathiser, anti-semite etc etc) from the fact that his fundamental policies are aimed at fixing our broken society

Yet we know that the majority of people see that it's broken, as that's what drove the Brexit leave vote at the end of the day

 

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3 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

The thing is policies will not even get discussed when the person putting them together has very little credibility.

You only have to look at how Corbyn's position on the EU has crumbled to see that he is weak and has no leadership qualities. 

 

I rest my case

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But the fault of broken society falls at the doorstep of Conservatives and Labour.

One of the main reasons people see society as broken is due to the state of the welfare system.

Both parties have been guilty of being too soft and allowing people to exploit the system.

 

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49 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

But the fault of broken society falls at the doorstep of Conservatives and Labour.

One of the main reasons people see society as broken is due to the state of the welfare system.

Both parties have been guilty of being too soft and allowing people to exploit the system.

 

Again I think the media has played a huge part in exaggerating how people exploit the system. For every Sun exclusive story about a family on benefits with loads of kids also going on a cheap Spanish holiday to Benidorm, there are 1000s struggling to get by, who rely loads on state help to afford to live. No one write stories about them.

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1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

The thing is policies will not even get discussed when the person putting them together has very little credibility.

You only have to look at how Corbyn's position on the EU has crumbled to see that he is weak and has no leadership qualities. 

 

So Corbyn is a fence sitter who who is playing politics with the future of the UK or did have a position that has now crumbled?

Maybe there is another possibility. That the people who vote Labour are spilt between Leave and Remain and a no deal Brexit will screw both of them over as few of them are disaster capitalists?

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14 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Why?

Debate me and tell me what I have said there that is wrong?

Well I had just made the point that no matter how popular Labour policies are, there are people who have bought the media narrative about Corbyn hook line and sinker and therefore will never disassociate the two. You then repeated the media line that Corbyn is "weak and has no leadership qualities"

So apart from the fact that he won the Labour leadership election with the largest mandate ever for a party leader, and has withstood endless attempts to remove him from within his own party, withstood a no confidence vote and then won a second leadership challenge with an even larger share of the vote, seen off two Conservative Prime Ministers, led the defeat of Theresa May's Brexit deal three times in the Commons, and despite trailing the Tories by 25 points prior to the 2017 General Election he destroyed their majority and garnered more votes for the Labour Party than even Tony Blair managed...

The point being that with those facts - it's almost easier to portray him as a strong leader - yet the media choose not to, and people like you lap it up and repeat it

I don't deny he has his weaknesses, but it's not about him - it's about the way the media control the narrative, and why they do that. The future of our country depends on it

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1 minute ago, SchtivePesley said:

Well I had just made the point that no matter how popular Labour policies are, there are people who have bought the media narrative about Corbyn hook line and sinker and therefore will never disassociate the two. You then repeated the media line that Corbyn is "weak and has no leadership qualities"

So apart from the fact that he won the Labour leadership election with the largest mandate ever for a party leader, and has withstood endless attempts to remove him from within his own party, withstood a no confidence vote and then won a second leadership challenge with an even larger share of the vote, seen off two Conservative Prime Ministers, led the defeat of Theresa May's Brexit deal three times in the Commons, and despite trailing the Tories by 25 points prior to the 2017 General Election he destroyed their majority and garnered more votes for the Labour Party than even Tony Blair managed...

The point being that with those facts - it's almost easier to portray him as a strong leader - yet the media choose not to, and people like you lap it up and repeat it

I don't deny he has his weaknesses, but it's not about him - it's about the way the media control the narrative, and why they do that. The future of our country depends on it

Right forget the media narrative, let's discuss his stance on EU membership.

You tell me the strong leadership he has shown on the matter.

Let's not forget this is the most important political matter in a generation.

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19 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Again I think the media has played a huge part in exaggerating how people exploit the system. For every Sun exclusive story about a family on benefits with loads of kids also going on a cheap Spanish holiday to Benidorm, there are 1000s struggling to get by, who rely loads on state help to afford to live. No one write stories about them.

I dont need the media to say anything about the lay about, blame culture society that the welfare system has helped create, I live amongst it.

Believe it or not some people do form a view of society from their own personal experience rather than what is in the media.

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19 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

So Corbyn is a fence sitter who who is playing politics with the future of the UK or did have a position that has now crumbled?

Maybe there is another possibility. That the people who vote Labour are spilt between Leave and Remain and a no deal Brexit will screw both of them over as few of them are disaster capitalists?

I'd encourage you to find out the video of Corbyn talking about the EU referendums in Ireland and Denmark.

I think he actually referred to the EU as a 'Frankenstein monster' or something along them lines. Made reference to the votes being re-run until the EU got the result they wanted.

Hypocrisy of the highest order.

His change in stance is nothing other than an attempt to get into Number 10 through the back door.

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