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The Politics Thread 2019


David

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16 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Are Antifa in any way relevant in this country or are they just being used to justify white nationalism in the UK? 

Not sure what the Arab Liberation Movement relevance is, but the IRA blew stuff up and killed people in this country. I don't think Antifa is a thing here. 

What relevance do Antifa have to justify the amount of times they get mentioned? 

In your first paragraph you could replace Antifa with Tommy Robinson, and white nationalists with far left activists.

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4 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

I think on the qualitative elements (no fresh drinking water, no medicines) you are probably correct. But these are clear quantitative / black and white things that will happen - unless we are able to do something about it in the next few weeks.

What made me smile was even Government officials dispelling these statements as 'Project Fear' even though the report that was leaked was a government report. We are all so entrenched in protecting our corner that we seem to have completely lost the ability to see how to progress.

Agree with your last line. I know I certainly fit that description. I can hold my hands up though and say I have no idea what the immediate future holds and guess the same goes for all of us!

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2 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

Unwelcome - from whatever side they originate

The word you are looking for is 'terrorist'.

Did you know that there is an animal rights protestor held prison in this country under an act of terrorism?

We all support animal rights. Any decent human would. But to threaten to kill an animal tester to further your political view is an act of terrorism. It's physical violence and an extreme view.

 

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There is a good balanced description of what "antifa" is on the Anti-Defamation League website

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounders/who-are-the-antifa

I'd say I agree with their analysis - very critical of antifa violence but highlighting the danger of drawing a false equivalence between the two sides

Quote

All forms of antifa violence are problematic. Additionally, violence plays into the “victimhood” narrative of white supremacists and other right-wing extremists and can even be used for recruiting purposes.  Images of these “free speech” protesters being beaten by black-clad and bandana-masked antifa provide right wing extremists with a powerful propaganda tool. 

That said, it is important to reject attempts to claim equivalence between the antifa and the white supremacist groups they oppose. The antifa reject racism but use unacceptable tactics. White supremacists use even more extreme violence to spread their ideologies of hate, to intimidate ethnic minorities, and undermine democratic norms. Right-wing extremists have been one of the largest and most consistent sources of domestic terror incidents in the United States for many years; they have murdered hundreds of people in this country over the last ten years alone.  To date, there have not been any known antifa-related murders.

 

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4 minutes ago, Norman said:

The word you are looking for is 'terrorist'.

Did you know that there is an animal rights protestor held prison in this country under an act of terrorism?

We all support animal rights. Any decent human would. But to threaten to kill an animal tester to further your political view is an act of terrorism. It's physical violence and an extreme view.

 

Actualy, it's not. Trying to suggest that anyone who engages in violence is a terrorist is unhelpful. It doesn't mean I agree with violence, but calling them terrorist is divisive and inflammatory and utterly, utterly unhelpful.

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3 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

Actualy, it's not. Trying to suggest that anyone who engages in violence is a terrorist is unhelpful. It doesn't mean I agree with violence, but calling them terrorist is divisive and inflammatory and utterly, utterly unhelpful.

From the Crown Prosection Service

'Terrorism is the use or threat of action, both in and outside of the UK, designed to influence any international government organisation or to intimidate the public.  It must also be for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause.'

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2 minutes ago, Norman said:

From the Crown Prosection Service

'Terrorism is the use or threat of action, both in and outside of the UK, designed to influence any international government organisation or to intimidate the public.  It must also be for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause.'

Take a moment, step back from the need to try and prove me wrong. You'll see that my comment and this one are perfectly complimentary.

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3 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

Take a moment, step back from the need to try and prove me wrong. You'll see that my comment and this one are perfectly complimentary.

Nah mate. You had a post removed for mocking someone's literacy skills yesterday. I won't stoop that low.

Antifa support physical violence for political gain. Aka terrorism.

Hitting someone in the face because you don't like them isn't terrorism  and rightly so. 

But you seem to keep missing the point that this is for politcal gain.

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17 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

There is a good balanced description of what "antifa" is on the Anti-Defamation League website

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounders/who-are-the-antifa

I'd say I agree with their analysis - very critical of antifa violence but highlighting the danger of drawing a false equivalence between the two sides

 

I notice the first ten words:

"In recent weeks, law enforcement officers across the United States"

So - not relevant in this country, however brought up at every opportunity to defend far right activism in the UK.

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14 minutes ago, Norman said:

Nah mate. You had a post removed for mocking someone's literacy skills yesterday. I won't stoop that low.

Did I? Genuinely not got a clue what you're on about.

EDIT: Oh, hold on, I think I know what you're on about. Well, it was meant in jest but it's not my board so if they deemed it outside acceptable that's their choice and I go with that. If we get to a place in the world where criticism of grammar is the worst of it then I, for one, won't complain.

Re: the rest of the post - let me write it out very plainly for you. Just to make sure you're clear I'm clear.

  • Trump calling anyone a terrorist does not make them a terrorist. In fact Trump saying anything does not make it so, as he has demonstrated more times than needs demonstrating.
  • Not everyone who engages in violence is a terrorist, as per your CPS definition posted
  • I do not condone violence, from any side
  • I have no view on whether the Proud Boys, Antifa or other orgs are terrorists. But I note with interest the way that Trump chooses to only wish to label one side in such terms.
  • I do not agree with your statement that "The rise of the far right is the product of the far left. And now the far left using violence to counter it is being justified"
  • As I said before, I find it disturbing that many choose to conflate this with our own challenges with extremism and potential thug related politics (e.g. Tommy Robinson)
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31 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

There is a good balanced description of what "antifa" is on the Anti-Defamation League website

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounders/who-are-the-antifa

I'd say I agree with their analysis - very critical of antifa violence but highlighting the danger of drawing a false equivalence between the two sides

 

Yes that looks like a pretty balanced article!

"White supremacists use even more extreme violence to spread their ideologies of hate"

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50 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I notice the first ten words:

"In recent weeks, law enforcement officers across the United States"

So - not relevant in this country, however brought up at every opportunity to defend far right activism in the UK.

As far as I can tell in relation to this conversation Antifa was first bought up by @ariotofmyown it was then very turned into an argument about The Proud Boys, nothing really to do with defending far-right activism in the UK ?

What about the far-left activism of Owen Jones, who despite being on the receiving end of a savage beating managed to haul himself around various TV and radio studios the next day without any visible bumps, bruises or scratches etc claiming without evidence (at least non that he can talk about ?) that despite not hearing anything it was the far-right that attacked him?  Is that not concerning?

In the fullness of time, he may well be proved correct, but if not he has abused his position to cause division and push his narrative - only in the current #metoo era (believe all victims) has it become right-wing to question claims and wait for evidence, despite the fact that the media were completely wrong and wilfully pushed a far-left narrative in the Jussie Smollett and Convington Kids incidents.

And lets not forget that this is the same Owen Jones we are talking about that happily condones the milkshaking of political opponents and posts videos such as the below on his twitter account.

Politics today is all about hate and division from both sides and its getting worse.  IMHO the left get away with far more than the right and have to shoulder at least an equal burden of responsibility for the escalation we are seeing today. 

Until we all calm down and stop trying to whip up our side into a frenzy whilst calling people we don't agree with evil its only going to get worse.

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23 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Yes that looks like a pretty balanced article!

"White supremacists use even more extreme violence to spread their ideologies of hate"

How many people have been killed by "Antifa"? A. None

How many people have been killed by white supremacist terrorists? A. A hell of a lot

"more extreme"

 

 

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42 minutes ago, maxjam said:

What about the far-left activism of Owen Jones, who despite being on the receiving end of a savage beating managed to haul himself around various TV and radio studios the next day without any visible bumps, bruises or scratches etc claiming without evidence (at least non that he can talk about ?) that despite not hearing anything it was the far-right that attacked him?  Is that not concerning?

I was concerned as to why it was called out as a politically motivated attack when there appeared to be no evidence to support that yes. 

But then I hadn't seen that later interview clip you just posted, where it's clear that there IS evidence but he can't discuss it as it's part of a criminal investigation.

The rest of the clip he makes lots of valid points consistent with your own views so that's good

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6 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

But then I hadn't seen that later interview clip you just posted, where it's clear that there IS evidence but he can't discuss it as it's part of a criminal investigation.

That remains to be seen, he ignored the question about passing information onto the police, just said he couldn't talk about it. 

If it does turn out that far right thugs attacked him, firstly they didn't do a very good job ? and secondly we'll all condemn them - but if he has used a random incident to push his personal agenda or taken a drunken brawl with tenuous political links and weaponised it to push his agenda on tv then he's far more to blame than any thugs that attacked him imo.

 

12 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

The rest of the clip he makes lots of valid points consistent with your own views so that's good

I'd agree that he makes a lot of valid points in the latter part of the clip *but* he fails to mention the damage the media on the left (of which he is a part of) are causing as well.  Owen Jones has got a massive blind spot when it comes to actions he'd otherwise happily call out when they occur to his political enemies.

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2 hours ago, GboroRam said:

Are Antifa in any way relevant in this country or are they just being used to justify white nationalism in the UK? 

Not sure what the Arab Liberation Movement relevance is, but the IRA blew stuff up and killed people in this country. I don't think Antifa is a thing here. 

What relevance do Antifa have to justify the amount of times they get mentioned? 

Probably because there's an Antifa support group in this forum and some of those members think it's okay for direct action. So when they get designated a terrorist organisation, these members are going to end up on a watch list if they continue to support Antifa and direct action. The rules of this forum are being bent and warped to accommodate for this. 

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3 hours ago, maxjam said:

Can't both be at fault?

Its just another step on the escalation ladder, which is why I find the over-reaction to the unsubstantiated Owen Jones incident so disheartening.

I am as peace loving as they come, but if l was given just the one complimentary ‘slap pass’ then Owen Jones probably would be my pick.  

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