A question for Derby fans...

[cheron85]

On 19/11/2018 at 20:47, NorwichLad said:

Very few scouts make a full time wage, most don't even make a part time one..... but don't worry, they don't ask to feel appreciated by Joe Bloggs ?

I think maybe you're talking youth scouts vs full time scouts here - The 'scouting staff' at most major clubs will be trying to find potential first team players and looking at opposition and those guys will be paid 

On 19/11/2018 at 20:41, NorwichLad said:

Blimey, I dunno.... just read it in The Guardian guys....

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2009/aug/08/football-scout-walsall-fc

No idea if he was a good scout or not, but seemed to pluck Antonio Valencia out of nowhere for Wigan and Jimmy Bullard for £250k so probably a fair bit better than some bloke down the pub I should suspect. 

Interesting but very old article - Obviously has a certain viewpoint on things but his opinions on Nigel will be as a member of staff Nigel hadn't chosen, didn't know and therefore probably didn't listen to - It was also at a stage where it didn't really matter what the opposition was doing... Nigel had to get a team struggling to stay up and I would imagine one technique IS to ignore the opposition and focus internally - I'd give the guy a little more credit if he knew anything from the following seasons - Nigel was and still is a VERY cautious manager - I very much doubt he ignores scouting

14 hours ago, ronnieronalde said:

He has faults, he makes mistakes, it was judged he wasn't good enough for either Derby or Sheffield United, which is fine and fair enough but it won't  change the fact I think he's a good manager. Certainly not in the top one like his old man was but still good.

I have an appreciation for Nigel and what he did - Would happily watch his brand of Derby football over another stint from Pearson or Rowett (maybe even Clement) - But for me he's found his level at Burton - He's great putting together a team of football playing hard workers on a shoe string

I think he has a right to feel a little bitter that he was let go just before the money started rolling in for us - But at the same time it all goes back to McClaren coming in and immediately getting 25% extra out of our players - Nigel had them mid-table, McClaren took us within touching distance of the PL with much the same squad, some good connections and the respect of being well known as a good coach for young players

[cosmic]

12 minutes ago, StringerBell said:

I always read my cornflakes. 

 In cereal installments?

[StringerBell]

4 minutes ago, cosmic said:

 In cereal installments?

Very amuesling.

[Ambitious]

On 19/11/2018 at 20:47, NorwichLad said:

I'm afraid your post becomes worthless on the second line when you consider that the vast majority of scouts are volunteers who are lucky if they get reimbursed for mileage and stand outside in the wind and rain trying to find the next Will Hughes out of nothing other than passion for the game..... I know a volunteer scout at Bournemouth who gets 40p a mile and £50 if he recommends a player who passes a trial and gets signed for their academy. Fifty ducking quid..... bare in mind that these clubs insist on Level 2 quals now, which costs £200 + hotel accommodation + travel...... and I think we can ascertain immediately discard your entire post as one made out of sheer ignorance.

Very few scouts make a full time wage, most don't even make a part time one..... but don't worry, they don't ask to feel appreciated by Joe Bloggs ?

I wasn't on about volunteer scouts that watch kids play on a Saturday/Sunday morning. 

My point was focused solely on the fact that those who have been scouting players for Derby County in the past decade haven't done a very good job. If Derby are paying these guys next to nothing and relying on their 'passion for the game' to ultimately recommend how to spend £10+million then I can't think of a more apt saying 'if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys'.

A top scout for a Championship club should be earning £1000s a week, he absolutely should, because if you find one worth their salt then rewards are huge. Not just in the savings to sign a top player at this level, but the potential for sell on clauses. 

If Mel Morris had spent a bit more on the scouting network, providing it was spent correctly, he probably would have saved himself a lot of money and brought in more players with a higher sell on value. There is absolutely no doubt at all that there is at least a few players currently at League One/Two clubs right now that will go on to play in the Premier League at a high level in their career. History tells us that. It also tells us that there are players in Europe that could go on to play at a high level in the Premier League. 

[ronnieronalde]

7 minutes ago, Ambitious said:

I wasn't on about volunteer scouts that watch kids play on a Saturday/Sunday morning. 

My point was focused solely on the fact that those who have been scouting players for Derby County in the past decade haven't done a very good job. If Derby are paying these guys next to nothing and relying on their 'passion for the game' to ultimately recommend how to spend £10+million then I can't think of a more apt saying 'if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys'.

A top scout for a Championship club should be earning £1000s a week, he absolutely should, because if you find one worth their salt then rewards are huge. Not just in the savings to sign a top player at this level, but the potential for sell on clauses. 

If Mel Morris had spent a bit more on the scouting network, providing it was spent correctly, he probably would have saved himself a lot of money and brought in more players with a higher sell on value. There is absolutely no doubt at all that there is at least a few players currently at League One/Two clubs right now that will go on to play in the Premier League at a high level in their career. History tells us that. It also tells us that there are players in Europe that could go on to play at a high level in the Premier League. 

apparently there are literally thousand of them littered across Spain's second division, all of them better than Will Hughes and probably available for 100k.

[Philmycock]

Is Mrs Ince still scounting for us?

[ronnieronalde]

7 minutes ago, philmycock said:

Is Mrs Ince still scounting for us?

She gets a bit of unfair stick I think, everyone thinks she charged 750k to eventually recommend the world renowned Mbappe, who anyone could have seen was world class and out of reach.

Mel misheard her, she'd actually spotted the incredible untapped potential and sponsorship opportunities signing these boys would bring. The lass is a visionary and worth every penny.

 

[Archied]

1 hour ago, ronnieronalde said:

She gets a bit of unfair stick I think, everyone thinks she charged 750k to eventually recommend the world renowned Mbappe, who anyone could have seen was world class and out of reach.

Mel misheard her, she'd actually spotted the incredible untapped potential and sponsorship opportunities signing these boys would bring. The lass is a visionary and worth every penny.

 

Yep bit of a mix up , Mel thought we were getting a Scottish lad

[bigbadbob]

8 hours ago, ramsbottom said:

Even though Nigel is pretty old school in his methods, I doubt he would rock up at an away game with absolutely no knowledge of how that team play.  I'd quite like to read these quotes as I can imagine they're not entirely accurate...

Feel free to tally those posts up, cus I'd be surprised if it was more than half a dozen Tony from Belper types who still kiss a picture of his Dad goodnight each night.

You spend a lot of time on a Derby forum considering your allegiances don't you.  You're own fans sick of you or something??

Not many at all. Norwichlad could count them on the fingers on one of his hands

[Brammie Steve]

No offence intended but an Ipswich fan from Norwich is probably as safe locally as a Forest fan from Derby posting on an unofficial Leeds fans site.

I could say oxymoron but that does sound offensive maybe?

[NorwichLad]

On 20/11/2018 at 00:59, cannable said:

But how in the world is anybody thinking Bradley Johnson can play as a linking #8? He wasn’t even anywhere near technical enough to play as the midfield runner in that system. 

I did find it really odd that you paid £6m for a player who had a fantastic season as a goalscoring left sided midfielder and then pretty much tried to use him as either an anchor man or a box to box midfielder. And felt a bit sorry for Bradley Johnson to be honest. 

[NorwichLad]

On 20/11/2018 at 06:26, Chester40 said:

@NorwichLad you seem to be getting a lot of hammer without any really doing anything wrong. The fact Norwich are top does smack of gloating but nothing in the tone of what you say does. Seems a genuine attempt to start a fairly sensible debate. Not one that is massively surprising to be fair though. Slighted ex-employee says boss didn't listen to them when they knew best... 

Its a very long season and we were completely outclassed by Leeds at our place, so I'm not getting too carried away.

I'm booked on to the Level 2 Talent ID course with the FA..... that's the reason for my interest in scouting. 

Even teams at Blue Square North level have scouts that produce opposition reports for them. Most clubs have a template that they use, so that 18 page scouting report produced by David Hamilton would likely to have been following the exact template he'd either always used as an individual and took with him throughout his career, or was agreed with Paul Jewell and his coaching staff? 

I had a chat with a well known scout a few weeks ago and he told me that when he started he'd watch a 3pm kick off game and his report wouldn't be finished until 1am, even years later it would still take him 3 hour. 

I've seen a 12 page template for a Conference National team, that was the reason for my (genuine) surprise that Clough never bothered to read them. And it seems to be because his dad never bothered.... only his dad coached in a different generation when tactics weren't as varied, teams used the same XI every week and had smaller squads, and frankly he had the best side in the country for much of his career. 

[NorwichLad]

On 20/11/2018 at 08:54, Yojimbo said:

I think this is a questionable statement. I’d say there’s a good percentage of Derby fans who didn’t rate Clough. Just bringing his name up is pretty much the most divisible thing you can do even 5 years after he’s gone.

Apologies then, because for some reason I thought that his stock was very high, must have just stumbled on the wrong thread some time with a higher than typical proportion of pro-Clough voices. 

[NorwichLad]

On 21/11/2018 at 10:00, ramsbottom said:

 I'd quite like to read these quotes as I can imagine they're not entirely accurate...

Pretty sure I've already linked to The Guardian article twice in this thread. 

On 21/11/2018 at 10:00, ramsbottom said:

You spend a lot of time on a Derby forum considering your allegiances don't you. 

I would try and dig it up for you or point you to the exact post in question, but I've decided I spend too much time on this forum so I better not. 

[NorwichLad]

On 21/11/2018 at 12:54, Ambitious said:

I wasn't on about volunteer scouts that watch kids play on a Saturday/Sunday morning. 

My point was focused solely on the fact that those who have been scouting players for Derby County in the past decade haven't done a very good job. If Derby are paying these guys next to nothing and relying on their 'passion for the game' to ultimately recommend how to spend £10+million then I can't think of a more apt saying 'if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys'.

A top scout for a Championship club should be earning £1000s a week, he absolutely should, because if you find one worth their salt then rewards are huge. Not just in the savings to sign a top player at this level, but the potential for sell on clauses. 

If Mel Morris had spent a bit more on the scouting network, providing it was spent correctly, he probably would have saved himself a lot of money and brought in more players with a higher sell on value. There is absolutely no doubt at all that there is at least a few players currently at League One/Two clubs right now that will go on to play in the Premier League at a high level in their career. History tells us that. It also tells us that there are players in Europe that could go on to play at a high level in the Premier League. 

 

The quality of your recruitment over the years isn't really relevant to your former manager not bothering to read opposition reports though.

Watching teams that you'll be playing in the near future to work out how they are playing and their likely lineup and then putting it all in an 18 page report is completely different to being assigned to watch an individual player who your club might be interested in signing.

If a scout is told to go and watch Joe Bloggs the striker at Stevenage he'd usually do so for about 3 or 4 games, and he'd be so focused on watching that player that he wouldn't take in most of the rest of the game.  

Also, even if you did have a senior 1st team scout or Chief Scout who was solely used to identify possible transfer targets, it wouldn't really be his job to negotiate the transfer fee and contract would it..... they aren't trained to do that. The extent of their remit is really to determine whether X player is good enough to play for X team, whether its your first team, or U18 team or whatever. 

I'm pretty sure that you didn't have a scout watching Bradley Johnson during our promotion season and then write in his report "This player is excelling on the left side of midfield but would be just perfect as an anchor man for Derby County", and this actually may be an indication that you didn't use scouts and scouting enough rather than that your scouts were incompetent? 

I doubt you even scouted Bradley Johnson as you wouldn't have expected him to have been made available for transfer, we all know the rumours why he was available for transfer though..... don't we? 

[IlsonDerby]

On 19/11/2018 at 14:33, Ambitious said:

Ignoring the Nigel Clough chat, which is something that's been done to the death, it's quite an interesting question.

Scouting, in my opinion, is the easiest job in football. I mean it absolutely baffles me that these guys get paid to watch football, hours & hours of football, yet still end up plugging some of the crap we've signed through the years. I just don't get it. It's really not that hard. I get that some should be better than others, also I get that some club facilities are better than others, but I can't over emphasis this enough - if we, Derby County, had used Football Manager to scout players rather than our own paid for scouts then we would have been better off. I can't stress how badly I think the scouting has been at this club. We paid more in terms of a transfer fee and wages for Bradley Johnson than Leicester City did for N'golo Kante. We paid more than double the amount for Conor Sammon than Leicester did for Riyad Mahrez. 

How many times do we see players come from the lower leagues or abroad to be world beaters. They don't just change overnight. Kante may have improved and developed, but I'd like to think that anyone who made professional football scouting their job would have been able to see that he at least had enough about him not to be a complete flop. 

That's my very vocal opinion on scouting players for transfers, now as for scouting teams before we play them. I, personally, think it should take a backseat with regards to how much it impacts your tactics. The main reason being that if you're constantly changing your methodology it will inevitably impact on the team's development going forward. It's the Lampard/Rowett argument. Rowett set out to disrupt the opposition, so much so that he didn't even need excellent players to play his game, just functional % type players - Pulis style. Lampard certainly seems to be more centred on development, putting much more focus on refining our game and playing the best we can play. Let the other team worry about stopping us, not vice versa. I much more prefer it. Now, I am not naive enough to think that we can have no scouting, that's not what I am suggesting, but I would focus it purely on: set pieces, opposition players strengths and weaknesses & behaviour patterns in games, for example If you're playing a team that starts games quickly and gets the first goal 70% of the time, use the first quarter of the game to frustrate them. If they've got a Joey Barton type mardy rick in their team, get him wound up. If they've got a clumsy CB who grapples, use it to your advantage to win free kicks around the area. 

I'll say it again - it really isn't that difficult. I don't understand how we've got it so wrong on so many occasions. I can understand one or two falling through, especially if there is personal issues, but how many signings over the past decade have actually gone on to better things? I'd guess at less than 20% 

I disagree that its easy. 

Spotting that Mbappe has got a bit about him as a youngster is easy but scouring the conference and league 2 to see if there's a player that could make the step up to league 1/championship requires an incredible amount of ability. 

My good friend was a scout before he emigrated. Worked for 3/4 championship clubs during his time doing it. Did both player reports and match reports in different roles. Sitting with him and watching a football match was eye opening, they notice tiny little things that most people wouldn't even think to be looking for. 

 

On a side note... he watched our U23s regularly. Not last season but the season before he told me that none of our under 23s would make it to the top flight except for Lowe who could go all the way to the top. Even knew of top clubs interested in him but put off by injury record. 

Looking at how many we released/sold/sent out on loan it is interesting to see that the one that started off in our eleven was Lowe. I think we overhype most of our youngsters. If you can get 1 youngster per season in and around your matchday 18 then your academy is performing better than most.

[ramsbottom]

1 hour ago, NorwichLad said:

Pretty sure I've already linked to The Guardian article twice in this thread. 

I would try and dig it up for you or point you to the exact post in question, but I've decided I spend too much time on this forum so I better not. 

Jog on then...

[NorwichLad]

2 hours ago, ramsbottom said:

Jog on then...

Didn't realise Danny Dyer is a Derby fan.

What are you going to do if I don't "jog on", put all your Stone Island gear on and ring a top boy so he can 'front me up' while you stand behind him and pretend your well 'ard ?

[Norman]

3 minutes ago, NorwichLad said:

Didn't realise Danny Dyer is a Derby fan.

What are you going to do if I don't "jog on", put all your Stone Island gear on and ring a top boy so he can 'front me up' while you stand behind him and pretend your well 'ard ?

You called.

[WystonRam]

On 18/11/2018 at 16:21, NorwichLad said:

 

He seems to be held in high esteem by Derby fans.

No he isn’t.