SaintRam Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 @McLovin - I'm not gonna quote your post cos its big but I agree that in the optimal play-out-from-the-back team, a goalkeeper's distribution is very important. But, in the Championship, I'd wager that to get a goalkeeper that's particularly good with his feet you will be heavily downgrading on Carson's shot stopping ability. And that is far more important, regardless of the system. Looking for and acquiring a goalkeeper who's good with his feet is a luxury, not a requirement - and we should wait until we can afford one who is also as good or better at preventing goals as Carson is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animal is a Ram Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 You can negate that to some extent, because Keogh's pretty decent on the ball. I'd rather have Carson in goal over some poppadom-wristed keeper who's decent with the ball at his feet - and at this level, that's what you'd get, because thems that can do both will be in the Prem/Germany/Spain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexydadbod Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 13 minutes ago, jimbobram said: Those keepers are expensive and in the premier league though Some keepers who played in the English lower leagues last season who are good with their feet, Daniel Bentley, Angus Gunn, Dean Henderson, Marcus Bettenelli, Jamal Blackman. They are out there if you want to look hard enough, Huddersfield loaned Ward from Liverpool the year they won promotion and one of the main reasons they did so was because Wagner wanted his team to play out from the back. Even Granty was decent with his feet. I’m not advocating selling Carson but the OP raised a perfectly valid point that Carson’s distribution will need to improve if we want to play like Lampard wants us to. That’s one of the reasons we brought Given in as a goalkeeping coach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 I heard a crazy stat recently that if Man City conceded every shot on target, they still would have won the league. It’s a bit presumptuous to suggest we’ll be a Championship version of City so comparisons don’t mean anything yet, but the role of the keeper has probably been the biggest tactical change of the past ten years. Rob Green was saying the other day that he was glad he retired when he did because he doesn’t believe he could be coached to play the way Premier League clubs want their keepers to now. Good distribution doesn’t look like accurate side-foot passing anymore. It’s picking out a full back on the half-way line, dinking it over pressing opposition forwards, split-second decision making to create goal-scoring opportunities. I don’t think Carson’s distribution will be an issue as frankly I don’t think we’ll be good enough to justify getting rid of the best shot-stopper in the league for a sweeper-keeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady1993 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 I think there is a reasonable argument that he's not good enough with the ball at his feet for the style of play we want to employ. There is also a similar argument that he's not quick enough of his line. However he's distribution isn't terrible either and finding a keeper at this level who is reasonable with ball at feet and quick off the line that isn't a complete calamity is rare. In Grant we had one of the few. So unless there is a pristine candidate that emerges then it's almost certainly not worth chasing a new keeper. As it is Carson will likely not be a hindrance on how we play and will likely gain us points from a few fantastic saves. Just means that we need to make sure he had plenty of easy options to give the ball out to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbobram Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, McLovin said: Some keepers who played in the English lower leagues last season who are good with their feet, Daniel Bentley, Angus Gunn, Dean Henderson, Marcus Bettenelli, Jamal Blackman. They are out there if you want to look hard enough, Huddersfield loaned Ward from Liverpool the year they won promotion and one of the main reasons they did so was because Wagner wanted his team to play out from the back. Even Granty was decent with his feet. I’m not advocating selling Carson but the OP raised a perfectly valid point that Carson’s distribution will need to improve if we want to play like Lampard wants us to. That’s one of the reasons we brought Given in as a goalkeeping coach Was Given's distribution that good ? Genuine question. I would also say that all the above keepers excluding Ward aren't as good as Carson in most other areas. If the idea is to play out from the back, I cant see much of a problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bald Eagle's Barmy Army Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 12 hours ago, DcfcJB said: Absolutely love the guy, best goalkeeper I have seen play for Derby, however after watching the game yesterday, it looks like we will be playing out from the back as much as possible. One thing all Derby fans know is he isn’t particularly great at picking a pass... at times yesterday it was exposed. Very sad but could see him being replaced in Jan if he can’t adapt it, anyone share this theory. However still the best shot stopper in the championship! He's still got time on his hands to learn the Frank way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexydadbod Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 1 minute ago, jimbobram said: Was Given's distribution that good ? Genuine question. I would also say that all the above keepers excluding Ward aren't as good as Carson in most other areas. If the idea is to play out from the back, I cant see much of a problem I didn’t suggest that they were better than Carson overall, merely rebutting the idea that all goalkeepers who are good with their feet are expensive and are playing in the big leagues. Given’s distribution was ok but he’s been doing many practical licences since his retirement so his coaching methods should improve Carson’s distribution which is a good thing. It’s like the argument that managers don’t know what they are talking about if they haven’t played the game, they may just be better at putting their ideas across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramsbottom Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 Looks like the wrist slashers are finding the littlest thing to whinge about after Saturday's performance. If it wasn't for Carson's contributions, we'd have been nowhere near the play offs last season. He's absolute class... Just because Pickford, Allison & Ederson are flavour of the month, doesn't mean every keeper has to be able to do a 50 yard rabona to feet to be effective... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 If we got promoted I could see this scenario playing out, but in the Championship with a supposedly tight budget going big on a keeper (which is what we would have to do to find one better than Carson) shouldn't be a priority in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexydadbod Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 37 minutes ago, SaintRam said: @McLovin - I'm not gonna quote your post cos its big but I agree that in the optimal play-out-from-the-back team, a goalkeeper's distribution is very important. But, in the Championship, I'd wager that to get a goalkeeper that's particularly good with his feet you will be heavily downgrading on Carson's shot stopping ability. And that is far more important, regardless of the system. Looking for and acquiring a goalkeeper who's good with his feet is a luxury, not a requirement - and we should wait until we can afford one who is also as good or better at preventing goals as Carson is. I don’t think anyone’s suggesting to sell him though but for him to improve with his feet, which is the natural progression to improve overall as he’s sound in other aspects of his game. It’s not a major issue but it’s still important if Lampard wants to play from the back, which is I imagine why we brought Given in to improve Carson and the other keepers to make them more comfortable with the ball at their feet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 6 minutes ago, ramsbottom said: Looks like the wrist slashers are finding the littlest thing to whinge about after Saturday's performance. If it wasn't for Carson's contributions, we'd have been nowhere near the play offs last season. He's absolute class... Just because Pickford, Allison & Ederson are flavour of the month, doesn't mean every keeper has to be able to do a 50 yard rabona to feet to be effective... ? Read the OP again. It wasn’t a whinge. It was the start of what was meant to be a debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRam Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 Generally, having Keogh means that the defense can avoid playing it back to Carson unless they need to him to just clear it due to a press that they can't play out of. He averaged 27 "passes" per game. I'd wager the majority of those were just clearances. If the manager is going to force a system where they include the GK in passing it about then that's a problem that needs to be addressed, but whenever Carson's been on the pitch in pre-season he hasn't seen much of the ball. By contrast, Roos has seen the ball played back to him a lot. ON THAT NOTE - I know a lot of you probably think he's awful with his feet too after his error, but he's not. He's actually got pretty good feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexydadbod Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 With this new way of playing, mistakes will occur as we saw with Roos at Mansfield. However, as both Morris and Lampard both said in their post match interviews, they don’t mind that because it will take time for the keepers to adjust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archram Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 I thought it was quite noticeable on Saturday that he kicked long much less than usual. He threw and passed with feet quite a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angieram Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, archram said: I thought it was quite noticeable on Saturday that he kicked long much less than usual. He threw and passed with feet quite a lot. How sensible of someone to point this out rather than relying on last season's 'evidence'. We'll be doing a lot of things differently this year (thank goodness!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramsbottom Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, Duracell said: Read the OP again. It wasn’t a whinge. It was the start of what was meant to be a debate. I don't think his distribution is anywhere near as bad as people make out. Perhaps in the early days of Clement's reign when he had him trying to ping it to the half way line for Forsyth to head on. From what I saw from highlights on Saturday, he was only shuffling it to either side of the box. Hardly needs Scholes level passing ability... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, ramsbottom said: I don't think his distribution is anywhere near as bad as people make out. Perhaps in the early days of Clement's reign when he had him trying to ping it to the half way line for Forsyth to head on. From what I saw from highlights on Saturday, he was only shuffling it to either side of the box. Hardly needs Scholes level passing ability... Flicking through the thread, I’m not even sure anyone claimed it was awful, just that it might be a potential weakness if we play a certain way. Valid point to make on a discussion forum. It might be possible to argue that Carson was shuffling it either side because that’s what he’s most comfortable doing. We don’t know what instructions are given to the players. A lot of assuming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StockholmRam Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 You can see quite clearly v Saints on Saturday that playing out from the back via keeper and both centre halfs has been worked on extensively. All of the back four and holding mids ( plus Bryson and Mount) play a huge part in helping the keeper. Give him multiple options, and give them fast. We were noticeably umpteen times faster back in possession, especially in the keeper with ball scenario. Playing this way requires fantastic fitness and stamina from the outfield players. Carson isn't the best or worst keeper with his feet I've ever seen and they will continue to work on this very important aspect of our play throughout the season. Biggest test will come when we face teams who are set up to negate our style and flood the midfield and push high. Plan B time... I loved what I saw v Saints. Early days for sure...but...fortune favors the brave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigfella Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 3 hours ago, BathRam72 said: Don't take life so seriously. I am sure he was just attempting humour. Which I got Spot on! But on a serious note and in an attempt to be more “intelligent” the goalkeeper distributing the ball is only one part of the equation. In order for his distribution to be good he has to have someone to distribute it to. On Saturday generally Keogh and Davies dropped to the side of the penalty box to receive the ball - this was clearly evident to the opposition, poor as they were, and they were closed down, so Carson had to go long to Nugent who was beaten in the air. The full backs didn’t call for the ball and neither did the midfield drop deep to receive it, so what is Carson expected to do in that situation? My other gripe is that when things appear to be going well someone tries to stir things up. Yes I know it’s a debate and I know people have every right to have an opinion but that doesn’t necessarily mean those opinions are correct. Neither does it mean mine is correct also. I think we are fortunate to have Scott Carson and there are not many keepers I would swap him for in the Championship or the Premier League come to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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